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mjames
02-21-2012, 12:35 AM
How is Miner forgettable? He's done extremely well for himself this season, exceeding everyone's expectations by medaling at a GP, Nationals, and 4CC. Dornbush is in a bit of a rough spot now but I wouldn't call him forgettable either. I'm more worried about Brown's future than Farris's at this point to be honest, as Farris has a consistent 3a and has started trying the 4t in competition, and Brown has not done 3a in competition yet and I haven't heard anything about him even training a quad. Brown I fear could be the next Rippon, who lucked out this season and made it to Worlds, but with Miner's recent success I think the USFS will start to put him ahead of Rippon starting next season, Rippon doesn't get great marks internationally anyways and Miner is on the upswing. USFS already prefers Dornbush to Rippon Ricky just gave it away when he bombed nats. Brown has all the other qualities but it doesn't matter if he can't get a consistent 3a or a quad. Farris's issues are mostly stamina in the LP/consistency, which are more easily learned than a 3a or 4t, both of which he has already mastered with good technique. The rest of Farris's skating is strong as well.


What does this mean? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
In addition to National Junior title and the JGP final Champ, Rippon earned 2 World Junior Champ titles, 1 Four Continents Gold, a National Senior Silver and a couple of Grand Prix medals....why is that so fearful?????? :rofl:
You are much too quick to annoinmt the "next great one" like Gao and Dornbush and even quicker to dismiss others as washed up who do well like Brown and Ribbon. Makes no sense.
How do you know who is in favor, where is your evidence? I think Brown and Farris are in good hands and will find their way in their own time not anyone elses.

victoriaheidi
02-21-2012, 03:35 AM
A lot of us felt that she would have been a good pick for Skate America after her amazing skate at Liberty this year, but she chose to do junior events instead so Joelle had a pretty clear path to the spot. If Samantha shows up this summer in the same form as she was last summer, I don't really know why she shouldn't be considered for SA- unless of course she goes the junior route for ANOTHER year. She did medal at both her JGP's which puts her into Team Envelope C, and qualified for Nationals, so its not as if she has no accomplishments to her name. And her season's best score is pretty high up there also, so she may end up with a GP spot even if its not Skate America. I'd love to see her avoid injury for a whole season also, but this is not a skater to be ignored either way.

Yeah, the more I read what I've written about Samantha in the past, the more I question why I seem to sound negative when I discuss her. In truth, I like her skating and her programs, but she's not my favorite US lady, and I just don't feel like she's proven herself to be as super-brilliant as a lot of FSUers think she is. I mean, people here had her in the last warm-up group at Worlds 2012, IIRC.

Then again, I may just be anti-hype. I love Gracie Gold and I have for a very long time now, but I don't like the hype on her, either.

Jenna
02-21-2012, 04:22 AM
A lot of us felt that she would have been a good pick for Skate America after her amazing skate at Liberty this year, but she chose to do junior events instead so Joelle had a pretty clear path to the spot. If Samantha shows up this summer in the same form as she was last summer, I don't really know why she shouldn't be considered for SA- unless of course she goes the junior route for ANOTHER year. She did medal at both her JGP's which puts her into Team Envelope C, and qualified for Nationals, so its not as if she has no accomplishments to her name. And her season's best score is pretty high up there also, so she may end up with a GP spot even if its not Skate America. I'd love to see her avoid injury for a whole season also, but this is not a skater to be ignored either way.

Samantha typically has a fantastic summer season, which is great news for her! I hope she can come back and impress the hell out of the officials at Liberty like she did last year. I would love it if she got the host pick, any other GP is doubtful. It's so, so unfortunate she's had to miss Nationals twice in a row now. I felt like last year was her year to make a big step forward. She accomplished that on the JGP, and I think she definitely could have been top six in the US if she skated like she did on the JGP. Now, I feel like this year is her absolutely last chance. She needs to make some strides now, or I fear she will be lost in the shuffle.

pinky166
02-21-2012, 04:49 AM
Why would Jason be training for a quad since he hasn't even done a 3axel in competition yet? I think he's a better all around skater then Farris and if and when he gets the jumps he will jump up to near the top of the list of US men. Didn't Patrick Chan take awhile to get his 3xel too? Now look at him. He didn't rush to get his quad either and it worked out for him. Not saying that Jason will be as good as Chan but he alreday has better skating skills then most of the top Senior men.

He is clearly struggling with 3a so learning a quad would be a good idea if 3a is never going to be a strong/consistent jump for him, which judging from the smallness of his 2a I can see being a distinct possibility. That is what Lambiel did and what Rippon seems to be trying to do now, though I will say he's consistency with 3a has gotten better, but he still majorly stalks the jump and it's always a small, tight jump with little flowout.

The Chan comparison isn't valid because at the same age Jason is now, Chan had a 3a that was very strong when he landed it, he just didn't have great consistency on the jump. That is very different from not having attempted it once in competition like Brown. Chan won World silver at 18 don't forget. He certainly had a 3a and was attempting it in both his SP and FS at 17 and was racking up +GOE for it when he landed them, even if his success rate wasn't great.

Farris OTOH has all the goods he needs to do well in seniors, he just needs more consistency and confidence, but already he has come leaps and bounds since last season. Of course he could turn out to be like Verner or Mirai or something and just never be very consistent despite having all the tools, but he doesn't really have any weaknesses, and IMO he is just as strong as Brown artistically, they just have different styles. Josh is very flexible and quite the strong spinner, and you can see in his SP this season that he is really an expressive skater with a graceful, lyrical style. Jason's style is more flashy and attention grabbing sure, but that doesn't really get him more points (the PCS the two receive internationally is very similar), so he doesn't really have any advantage over Josh (except consistency, but his programs are also easier), and has the major disadvantage of having no 3a or 4t. The Brown hype reminds me of the Rippon hype when Rippon won JW with no 3a. I like the styles of both Brown and Farris, but I have a hard time accepting Brown as the next big thing when he's lacking a 3a and writing off Farris as a forgettable run of the mill skater when, at barely 17, he has a consistent 3a with good technique, has started trying 4t in competition , is received well internationally, and has a host of other good qualities...

Jammers
02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
Remember though Adam was a bit older then Jason when Adam won his Jr World championships.

Sylvia
02-21-2012, 04:56 PM
I like the styles of both Brown and Farris, but I have a hard time accepting Brown as the next big thing when he's lacking a 3a and writing off Farris as a forgettable run of the mill skater when, at barely 17, he has a consistent 3a with good technique, has started trying 4t in competition , is received well internationally, and has a host of other good qualities...
Who's "writing off" Farris? :confused: Why can't we, as fans, just enjoy the special talents of both Jason Brown and Joshua Farris without tearing one down in order to build up the other? (ETA: Or making negative comparisons/generalizations with other skaters when every skater is different and will develop at their own pace.)

pinky166
02-21-2012, 06:07 PM
Who's "writing off" Farris? :confused: Why can't we, as fans, just enjoy the special talents of both Jason Brown and Joshua Farris without tearing one down in order to build up the other? (ETA: Or making negative comparisons/generalizations with other skaters when every skater is different and will develop at their own pace.)

Someone left a comment saying Farris was going to become forgettable like Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush which irked me because 1.) Farris just turned 17 and hasn't even competed as a senior internationally yet, he's still a baby 2.) the past two seasons Ross Miner has really stepped it up and proven he's one of the top men in the US, having won several medals to back it up and 3.) Dornbush won the 2011 JGPF by a huge margin, won the FS at the 2011 Nationals, and was the highest placing American man at the 2011 Worlds, so I'd hardly consider either skater "forgettable" or whatever, and if Farris were to have the same success as those two when he moves up to seniors that would be a huge accomplishment. The comment was just a little uncalled for.

I'm not saying Brown won't have great success as a senior, I'm a big fan of his skating and hope he continues to do well, I just didn't understand the comments comparing Farris to Miner and Dornbush that implied all three were forgettable i.e. going nowhere, nothing special, when so far they have all done really well internationally and none of them have the huge concern of not having a crucial jump in their arsenal like Brown, who the poster seemed to be promoting as the chosen one prematurely. Everyone is free to hype whoever they want, but this is a question I'd like to know, do people think that if Jason can't get a 3a or a consistent one, that he could still tear up the senior ranks? That's more the pertinent question, and skaters like Lambiel have been able to do it before. Idk if he has a quad in practice or anything but it wouldn't surprise me as his toe jumps appear much stronger than his axel jumps.

pinky166
02-21-2012, 06:18 PM
Remember though Adam was a bit older then Jason when Adam won his Jr World championships.

This is true. But when he won his 2nd Junior Worlds he did the 3a in his SP and (two) in his FS. If Brown is struggling with 3a putting more focus on a quad might not be a bad idea, it definitely seems like the quad comes easier to some men than the 3a (Lambiel, Verner, Bradley, etc) and Jason has strong toe-jumps.

haribobo
02-21-2012, 10:36 PM
Who's "writing off" Farris? :confused: Why can't we, as fans, just enjoy the special talents of both Jason Brown and Joshua Farris without tearing one down in order to build up the other? (ETA: Or making negative comparisons/generalizations with other skaters when every skater is different and will develop at their own pace.)

ITA, and every day I add someone else to my ignore list on here who does this or repeats themselves to excess. Soon I will be able to enjoy FSU again!

Triple Butz
02-22-2012, 03:22 AM
^^^ Can you elaborate further or do you have a link?


Re:Junior points not counting

Sorry, didn't see this until now. I am going on what I read in another thread where there was discussion about JGP scores not being counted, forcing transitioning juniors to do a Senior B event before they Senior GP which is not possible for all skaters. I'm not 100% sure this is correct information, sorry.

euterpe
02-22-2012, 04:26 PM
Juniors skating as Juniors at International Bs do not earn ISU ranking points. Only Seniors get points when they finish top 5 at International Bs, so Junior skaters can earn International B points if they compete as Seniors.

JGP points do count, of course.

kwanfan1818
02-22-2012, 07:32 PM
Some of these people need to post scores high enough to be assigned to a senior grand prix.
This year, the GP cut-offs were:

Ladies: 117.48 (top score: 201.34)
Men: 168.60 (top score: 280.98)
Pairs: 130.71 (top score: 217.85)
Dance: 111.15 (top score: 185.27)

Before Worlds, the top scores so far are:

Ashley Wagner: 192.41 (4C's), 60%=115.45
Patrick Chan: 273.9 (4C's), 60%=164.34
Savchenko/Szolkowy: 212.26 (GPF), 60%=127.36
Davis/White: 188.55 (GPF), 60%=113.13

Before Worlds, the following skaters' top scores are:

Farris: 207.67 (JGPF, 24 SB)
Brown: 208.41 (JGP Tallinn, 21 SB)
Han: 219.37 (JGP Lombardo, 16 SB)
Dolensky: 176.77 (JGP Volvo, 49 SB)
Warren: 166.42 (JGP Brisbane, 63 SB)
Dmitriev Jr.: 197.09 (JGP Baltic, 30 SB)
Firus: 180.00 (JGP Brisbane, 45 SB)
Kihara: 173.31 (JGP Baltic, 53 SB)
Bush: N/A

Assuming the calculation and requirements are the same for next year's GP,

Bush is the only one who doesn't have a score on the SB list and could only get a host pick. Warren would just qualify if no one scores higher than Chan's 4C's total score at Worlds. The highest score would have to be 288.85 or higher for Kihara to come short, and 294.62 for Dolensky to not qualify.

At this rate, Han Yan is likely to be guaranteed one spot (and likely get two) as Top 24 SB, if he moves to Seniors. All of this year's Top 24 Men skated Seniors. Brown has an outside shot at remaining in Top 24.

Shelepen:
Cesario: 153.84 (JGP Baltic, 28 SB)
Lipnitskaya: 183.05 (JGP Lombardi, 5 SB)
Lam: 156.58 (JGP Austria, 26 SB)
Shoji: 157.83 (JGP Tallinn, 23 SB)
Li: 157.70 (YOG, 24 SB)
Korobeynikova: 164.13 (Euros, 17 SB)
Gold: 172.69 (JGP Tallinn, 11 SB)

All of these Ladies will easily qualify the GP minimum, and Lipnitskaya and Gold will stay Top 24 SB, and Korobeynikova likely will as well. Shoji and Li could remain Top 24 as well with their current scores.

Duarte/Grafton: 127.54 (JGP Austria, 44 SB)
Sui/Han: Yeah.
Davankova/Deputat: N/A
Petaikina/Kurduykov: 146.17 (JGPF, 29 SB)

Duarte/Grafton would just squeak by if no one scores higher than S/S's 212.26 at GPF, but that's unlikely to hold. Would Deputat be old enough to skate seniors, even if they had a score?

It's also possible for any skater/team without a qualifying score on the SB list to qualify in one of the Fall Senior B's before GP, if they are an original host pick. (Substitutes, even for TBD, it seems from this year's behavior, don't need to qualify.)

Sylvia
02-22-2012, 07:38 PM
Would Deputat be old enough to skate seniors, even if they had a score?
Vasilisa Davankova turns 14 in May, so yes: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00014058.htm
Andrei Deputat turned 19 in December. They will get a SB score in their international debut at Junior Worlds next week.

ETA that Polina Shelepen's current SB total score is 162.34 (JGPF, 19 SB).

Thanks for compiling all this info, kwanfan1818! :)

euterpe
02-22-2012, 08:06 PM
Bush is the only one who doesn't have a score on the SB list and could only get a host pick.

Bush is competing at JW next week, and that will give him a score on the SB list.

jlai
02-23-2012, 03:37 AM
This year, the GP cut-offs were:

Ladies: 117.48 (top score: 201.34)
Men: 168.60 (top score: 280.98)
Pairs: 130.71 (top score: 217.85)
Dance: 111.15 (top score: 185.27)

Before Worlds, the top scores so far are:

Ashley Wagner: 192.41 (4C's), 60%=115.45
Patrick Chan: 273.9 (4C's), 60%=164.34
Savchenko/Szolkowy: 212.26 (GPF), 60%=127.36
Davis/White: 188.55 (GPF), 60%=113.13

All of these Ladies will easily qualify the GP minimum, and Lipnitskaya and Gold will stay Top 24 SB, and Korobeynikova likely will as well. Shoji and Li could remain Top 24 as well with their current scores.

It's also possible for any skater/team without a qualifying score on the SB list to qualify in one of the Fall Senior B's before GP, if they are an original host pick. (Substitutes, even for TBD, it seems from this year's behavior, don't need to qualify.)

Thanks for the info! I have a couple dumb questions: What do you mean by the GP cut-offs and the GP minimum? How does one qualify in the senior Bs before the GP?