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Vash01
02-19-2012, 09:28 PM
K&S were no.1 pair in russia before V&T and they achieved that. K&S had jump troubles even their throws but now they have improved.

if its technique its not yet that too late, 3 more seasons if they can regroup they can still outskate M/B although not C/D

Actually C&D are very beatable. They have nothing but the landings of the jumps and throws. When M&B develop, they will beat them, with a more complete program, and that could happen as early as the next US nationals. For the future of pairs skating in the USA, I hope that M&B will be the model, and not C&D who are pedestrian skaters as a pair. My feeling is that E&L have reached their potential and they cannot improve.

carriemarie
02-20-2012, 12:11 AM
K&S were no.1 pair in russia before V&T and they achieved that. K&S had jump troubles even their throws but now they have improved.

if its technique its not yet that too late, 3 more seasons if they can regroup they can still outskate M/B although not C/D

I disagree that a clean E/L couldn't beat the current top US teams. They are better pair skaters with pairs skating elements period. If they hit their jumps they should be able to beat both. They beat a clean Denney/Barrett fairly handily with an okay skate in Nationals in 2011. And I believe D/B were far superior team to D/C at this point. My bottom line is, if anyone would have told me E/L would have made the Olympic team in 2010 with a good, but not perfect skate, I would have laughed in your face. Rena and john were halfway decent that year and I thought they had it in the bag. So I wouldn't count them out yet if they decide to keep going. Another year, another pair champ at Nationals is my saying and this may be the same this year. Besides, Rockne and Keauna were going to be the next big thing and a shoe in for the Olympics (to the point of actually making arragements in Vancouver for housing pre-Nationals) and looked what happened. Ice is slippery and I don't see M/B as being the future of US pairs in which we make it to the top tier on the world level. Anything can happen in two years in Pairs and who knows who will get injured, retire, or breakup. Putting all our eggs in the D/C and MM/RB seems a little premature. It's not like E/L were seventh at Nationals this year. And as much as I like Donlan/Speroff, I think Zhang/Bartholomay and Haven/Frazier show more future promise.

Vash01
02-20-2012, 05:33 AM
The reason I am not holding out hope for E&L at this point is that even though they are the better pair overall, the inability to land jumps is going to make it difficult for them to be in 1st or 2nd place. They could have one good performance in them, but I don't see it happening on a consistent basis. It's disappointing but that's how it appears to me.

judgejudy27
02-20-2012, 05:35 AM
Actually C&D are very beatable. They have nothing but the landings of the jumps and throws. When M&B develop, they will beat them, with a more complete program, and that could happen as early as the next US nationals. For the future of pairs skating in the USA, I hope that M&B will be the model, and not C&D who are pedestrian skaters as a pair. My feeling is that E&L have reached their potential and they cannot improve.

The problem is the judges seem almost blind to C&D's flaws and give them inflated scores inspite of them. They have received PCS on par with a teams like Barazova & Larinov this year which is laughable. I shudder to think the PCS the judges will give them if they improve just a bit (but are still in the truck drivers category). Sui & Han are another team grossly overscored on PCS. Unlike C&D I see alot of potential in them, but alot of work to be done, and I fear with the judges scoring them far too high so young they will become like the Zhangs, were they wont start improving until it is too late (and only when the judges begin scoring them fairly after many years of overscoring but still never reaching the top of a major podium). Why work on improving when the judges tell you that you dont need to.

Vash01
02-20-2012, 05:42 AM
The problem is the judges seem almost blind to C&D's flaws and give them inflated scores inspite of them. They have received PCS on par with a teams like Barazova & Larinov this year which is laughable. I shudder to think the PCS the judges will give them if they improve just a bit (but are still in the truck drivers category). Sui & Han are another team grossly overscored on PCS. Unlike C&D I see alot of potential in them, but alot of work to be done, and I fear with the judges scoring them far too high so young they will become like the Zhangs, were they wont start improving until it is too late (and only when the judges begin scoring them fairly after many years of overscoring but still never reaching the top of a major podium). Why work on improving when the judges tell you that you dont need to.

I think part of the problem may be the way COP is designed. It does not give enough credit for the finer points, but gives a lot of points for the big elements (jumps and throws). If C&D's PCS were comparable with B&L's (I did not notice that) that is indeed laughable. The Zhangs always got away with poor lines, unison, spins, positions (particularly on the lifts) because they had big throws and at least early in their career they used to land the jumps consistently. I think S&H won't stop developing because they are getting high marks, but they are not likely to develop the things I value so much- lines and posture, unison, beautiful lifts, and musicality. They don't get points for being pretty, and as a viewer I feel robbed when I see ugly positions winning over beautiful ones. Of all the FS disciplines, pairs lost the most, IMO, by the changeover to COP.

judgejudy27
02-20-2012, 05:46 AM
I think part of the problem may be the way COP is designed. It does not give enough credit for the finer points, but gives a lot of points for the big elements (jumps and throws). If C&D's PCS were comparable with B&L's (I did not notice that) that is indeed laughable. The Zhangs always got away with poor lines, unison, spins, positions (particularly on the lifts) because they had big throws and at least early in their career they used to land the jumps consistently. Of all the FS disciplines, pairs lost the most, IMO, by the changeover to COP.

COP is horrible for pairs. As awful as it is to say a program like M&D's at the Albertville Olympics wouldnt even score well under COP with the missed solo jumps, the simpler lifts, and the well done but smaller throws, especialy with Russian federation now weak politically these days, even though it is plainly obvious it would deserve an extremely high score under any system. There is no attention to the finer points, but also no attentiont to things like the chemistry between partners, and the overall magic of ones performances level or program, which is essential to pairs, but dont fit anywhere under "skating skills" or "transitions" really (not that they bother even deducting from teams with poor skating skills or lack of transitions either).

The scoring of many individual elements is too easy to loophole around too and not reflective of true quality. For instance a team like Totmianina & Marinin, as much as I like them and think they fully deserved their 2006 Oly Gold, should not be getting all top possible level grades of difficulty with high GOE for their lifts, which happened in Turin and most competitions they were in. They fulfill the requirements set by the code. Even though I dont really like Brasseur & Eisler their lifts were some of the best ever, and far more difficult and superior to T&M. Yet under COP the best they could do is be graded as the same difficulty of all of T&M's lifts. That is an example of a major COP flaw in pairs. There are so many others. The difficulty and originality of some moves, like the lifts, can not be properly graded by fulfilling a set of rules.

Vash01
02-20-2012, 06:04 AM
The scoring of many individual elements is too easy to loophole around too and not reflective of true quality. For instance a team like Totmianina & Marinin, as much as I like them and think they fully deserved their 2006 Oly Gold, should not be getting all top possible level grades of difficulty with high GOE for their lifts, which happened in Turin and most competitions they were in. They fulfill the requirements set by the code. Even though I dont really like Brasseur & Eisler their lifts were some of the best ever, and far more difficult and superior to T&M. Yet under COP the best they could do is be graded as the same difficulty of all of T&M's lifts. That is an example of a major COP flaw in pairs. There are so many others. The difficulty and originality of some moves, like the lifts, can not be properly graded by fulfilling a set of rules.

ITA about the lifts. Brasseur & Eisler, who I never cared for, had some of the best lifts in pairs skating, but never got enough credit for them. They never competed under COP so it's hard to compare them with T&M, but B&E's lifts were far superior to T&M's (although T&M's unison on jumps, their landings on the throws were among the best in both scoring systems, IMO).

julieann
02-20-2012, 04:47 PM
The problem is the judges seem almost blind to C&D's flaws and give them inflated scores inspite of them. They have received PCS on par with a teams like Barazova & Larinov this year which is laughable. I shudder to think the PCS the judges will give them if they improve just a bit (but are still in the truck drivers category). Sui & Han are another team grossly overscored on PCS. Unlike C&D I see alot of potential in them, but alot of work to be done, and I fear with the judges scoring them far too high so young they will become like the Zhangs, were they wont start improving until it is too late (and only when the judges begin scoring them fairly after many years of overscoring but still never reaching the top of a major podium). Why work on improving when the judges tell you that you dont need to.

I totally agree! The judges are giving S/H and D/C PCS scores they have not yet earned.

E/L can easily get on top with better choreography and landing those jumps. They are by far the most aesthetically pleasing pair. They shouldn't have any trouble getting ahead of either of the two pairs. Anyone can win and anyone can be beaten.

olympic
02-20-2012, 05:19 PM
I totally agree! The judges are giving S/H and D/C PCS scores they have not yet earned.

E/L can easily get on top with better choreography and landing those jumps. They are by far the most aesthetically pleasing pair. They shouldn't have any trouble getting ahead of either of the two pairs. Anyone can win and anyone can be beaten.

I hate to be a pessimist, but I doubt at this point that Amanda will ever become solid on the SBS jumps. That will hold them behind D/C and M/B on the national front.

Vash01
02-21-2012, 07:40 AM
I totally agree! The judges are giving S/H and D/C PCS scores they have not yet earned.

E/L can easily get on top with better choreography and landing those jumps. They are by far the most aesthetically pleasing pair. They shouldn't have any trouble getting ahead of either of the two pairs. Anyone can win and anyone can be beaten.

Unfortunately, with the COP, I am afraid that S&H and D&C will continue to get high PCS scores, which defies logic, IMO. E&L will have to not only land the jumps but look more confident in their execution of jumps and throws. They may be the pairs version of Alissa Czisny. Even when they land the jumps, it is not with authority, and that's likely to hurt their PCS scores. They have been around a long time, and that's why I am afraid it may be too late for them to really climb up. I hope I am wrong.

carriemarie
02-22-2012, 12:26 AM
Unfortunately, with the COP, I am afraid that S&H and D&C will continue to get high PCS scores, which defies logic, IMO. E&L will have to not only land the jumps but look more confident in their execution of jumps and throws. They may be the pairs version of Alissa Czisny. Even when they land the jumps, it is not with authority, and that's likely to hurt their PCS scores. They have been around a long time, and that's why I am afraid it may be too late for them to really climb up. I hope I am wrong.

I think they land the throws with authority. Amanda just seems to lack confidence in her sbs. She has it in her. She hit them at the Olympics. Internationally their PCS scores improved this year, but I think D/C and M/B will probably be pushed more. I do think they may be able to pull a 'Ryan Bradley' and win a national title as there is a lot of support for them, especially stateside, but I am not sure about their chances internationally anymore.

lclevers
02-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Anyone know why Evora and her boyfriend split after nationals?

modern_muslimah
02-22-2012, 04:38 PM
Anyone know why Evora and her boyfriend split after nationals?

She broke up with her fiance before Nationals and I don't think either has gone public with the reason for the breakup.

Sylvia
02-22-2012, 04:40 PM
Is anyone attending "Skate into Spring" at the Ellenton, Florida rink this Saturday (Feb. 25) at 5 pm or 7 pm? I believe Mark Ladwig is producing this year's show and hopefully it will be a great success!

stjeaskategym
02-22-2012, 08:06 PM
I think they land the throws with authority. Amanda just seems to lack confidence in her sbs. She has it in her. She hit them at the Olympics. Internationally their PCS scores improved this year, but I think D/C and M/B will probably be pushed more. I do think they may be able to pull a 'Ryan Bradley' and win a national title as there is a lot of support for them, especially stateside, but I am not sure about their chances internationally anymore.

I agree, they have landed plenty of throws very solidly in recent years, and they are one of the few teams that does both the throw 3Lutz/flip and loop in the LP. I saw glimpses of hope in Amanda's jumping in '10-'11, but this past year she really struggled... The underrotations are more of a concern, I feel, than any falls. I'm wondering if the pressure that built for them this year (as the other top US pairs split, they may have thought of themselves as more of the "favorite" for Nationals) made her more tentative. During the skates when she doesn't UR, they seem to score well, but she really has been plagued by URs in most years. I think she is at least capable of jumping a little better than she showed this season, and I hope that whenever they do decide to stop, it will be after a strong skate that makes them proud.