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sk8girl
02-17-2012, 02:58 PM
My loop would be downgraded for sure, so no value.
I have a waltz jump-toe loop, the waltz jump has no value, that toe loop is generally cheated (sad...). I don't think I'd get any points here.
My sit spin would not count, it is fast, and centered, but not low enough.
My salchow would probably be downgraded, so no value.
My backspin is on the right edge, but I often don't cross my foot, would it count if I'm "not in position"?
My footwork is only half ice- is there provision for that? I might get a few points here.
My toe loop is usually not cheated. It might get me a few points.
My scratch spin is excellent, but I've already done an upright spin, no points here either.


Remember that there's a difference between underrotated jumps (<) and downgraded jumps (<<). Underrotated jumps DO get some value in IJS, just not the full base value of a fully rotated jumps. So, it would depend on how cheated your jumps are. If they are just underrotated (a cheat of less than 90 degrees, I think), you would get partial credit for all of them.

I know that you're not in Canada, but just to give you an idea of how your program would score under Skate Canada's modified version of IJS, you WOULD get credit for your waltz jump and at least partial credit for all of your singles, as long as they're just "underrotated" but not actually "downgraded". (If they're underrotated by more than 90 degrees then, no, you wouldn't get any credit.)

For your spins, no, you wouldn't get credit for your sit spin if it's not low enough. However, positions on upright spins (including backspins) are optional, so it doesn't matter if you cross your foot or not on your backspin. So, you would get full credit for your backspin, as long as you get enough revs. You're right that you can't get credit for both a forward upright spin and backspin, though - a lot of Skate Canada adult bronzes will do an upright spin and a change upright spin. If you have an upright spin and a backspin, then a change upright spin could be an option for you (if it's allowed under the USFS requirements), and that's worth more points than an individual spin anyway.

Footwork just has to cover "at least half of the ice surface" for Skate Canada adult IJS, so you're fine there. (Level 1 footwork is actually REALLY easy to get credit for - all you have to do is cover enough ice and that's it - you get your points!)

Also, remember that there is the PCS score as well, which definitely will always be above zero (even if it's very very low, which it is for many of us :lol:), so it would be very hard to end up with a negative overall score unless you fall a LOT of times. :)

luna_skater
02-18-2012, 04:32 AM
All the suggestions for a modified IJS are lovely, but the fact remains that IJS is a costly system for clubs to use - costly in ice time (every skater takes an average of 45 to 60 seconds longer than the norm under 6.0), in officials (adding 3 tech panelists to the norm of 5 judges and a referee - and in long competitions, you can't expect the same people to judge every event all day so you need two panels at least) and in equipment (the mini system is expensive to rent and the paper system uses more than 10 times the paper per event that 6.0 uses and takes much longer for the accountants to set up).

Since IJS costs the clubs more to use, they have to raise entry fees to cover their expenses. That puts a lot of competitions out of reach for a lot of the younger, newer competitors and could discourage a lot of parents from keeping their kids in the sport.

All of these are addressable. A couple of years ago in Canada, the position of a "technical judge" was proposed, though I don't know if it ended up being put in place (it didn't for synchro). The idea was that for the most basic levels, one official could both assign difficulty levels and award GOE and PCS. That is absolutely do-able for things like Spin, Spiral, Jump competitions.

I don't know what the restrictions are like in the US, but in Canada, the bare minimum you can run an event with is 3 judges (one can judge and ref) and a 2-person technical panel. There's no need to have 5 judges for a basic skills event.

In Canada, under 6.0, data specialists still had to attend competitions and run their computers to post and calculate results. I agree more paper is used, but that's not a strong argument for keeping an archaic system that's detrimental to skater development, over one that actually allows skaters to improve and receive valuable feedback.

Keeping 6.0 is not the answer. Adapting IJS to suit lower levels, and addressing any potential cost issues, is. The judges who even know what 6.0 is are going to run out at some point. People can't cling to that system forever. And it's not fair to the skaters.

AndyWarhol
02-18-2012, 06:52 AM
They should be judged under ISJ in my opinion. It doesn't make sense to be judged under one system for a year or so, then change. Skaters will be better in the long run if they are already comfortable with all the ISJ involves.

Aussie Willy
02-19-2012, 05:05 AM
You can quite easily judge lower levels with components under IJS. We do it for artistic events. You could pick Skating Skills and Performance as the two.

We have used a program called SkateScore which is great with 6.0 (based on an Excel macro) but it is no longer being developed for later versions of Excel. If you have Office 2007 or 2010 it just won't work.

I do agree with the comment already made in this thread about the amount of time and effort used to set up an event, particularly with IJS. Having done the computer side of things many time it can be quite exhausting (and I just did a 3 day adult event). SkateScore does involve some time doing pre-event data entry but then you just have someone to enter everything manually during the event which takes a few minutes for each event. You don't need a whole bank of computers which can then have connection problems which just freak everyone out.

zaphyre14
02-21-2012, 01:47 PM
US Figure Skating uses the HAL2 program for 6.0 events. It's a great little program that produces all the documents needed for a competition from starting orders to announcers' sheets to judges marks and whorksheets as well as calculating the results. One person with a laptop can handle a basic skills competition (although it's always best to have two people and two laptops just in case).

Even small IJS competitions require two accountants, at least two laptops and printers, (more if you have more than one ice surface) and a staff of people behind the scenes to generate all those lovely results. Frankly most clubs who host small low-level competitions have decided that IJS isn't worth the time and effort involved. Having the choice of system is beneficial to them and to the skaters.

If you don't want to compete in 6.0 competitions, that's fine too. But requiring all competitions at all levels to be held under IJS is just not practical.

Jenna
02-21-2012, 04:42 PM
US Figure Skating uses the HAL2 program for 6.0 events. It's a great little program that produces all the documents needed for a competition from starting orders to announcers' sheets to judges marks and whorksheets as well as calculating the results. One person with a laptop can handle a basic skills competition (although it's always best to have two people and two laptops just in case).

Even small IJS competitions require two accountants, at least two laptops and printers, (more if you have more than one ice surface) and a staff of people behind the scenes to generate all those lovely results. Frankly most clubs who host small low-level competitions have decided that IJS isn't worth the time and effort involved. Having the choice of system is beneficial to them and to the skaters.

If you don't want to compete in 6.0 competitions, that's fine too. But requiring all competitions at all levels to be held under IJS is just not practical.

So basically, they're putting the club first and the skaters second? How is 6.0 beneficial to the skaters at all anymore? It's only a detriment. The IJS isn't "new" anymore. It's time to get with the program, IMO. Yes, it's costly and time consuming...but that's the way the sport is going! What do you want me to tell you?

Having two completely different judging systems makes the sport so much more difficult for young skaters. For example, I knew a girl that won basically every competition under 6.0 on the Pre-Juvenile level. She landed four "double" jumps (all about 1/2 cheated) and she had decent speed and charisma. When she switched to Juvenile the following year, she placed dead last almost every time and ended up quitting due to frustration. Why? Because her jumps were finally being downgraded and her less than stellar spin positions were finally being accounted for. If this girl knew about these problems at a younger age, she could have avoided the frustration and shock that oftentimes occurs when skaters hit the Juvenile level. That's why IJS needs to be in place for at least Pre-Preliminary - Senior.

Sylvia
02-21-2012, 04:47 PM
^^^ If you feel so strongly about it, wouldn't it be more beneficial to try and DO something about it rather than posting on a skating fan forum? :)

Jenna
02-21-2012, 04:50 PM
^^^ If you feel so strongly about it, wouldn't it be more beneficial to try and DO something about it rather than posting on a skating fan forum? :)

:lol: Oh, I wish I could. But all I can do is voice my opinion! I don't have any power within US Figure Skating. I don't even have membership anymore.

Believe me, if I had any power to revise the rules, I would!

Clarice
02-21-2012, 06:30 PM
Having two completely different judging systems makes the sport so much more difficult for young skaters. For example, I knew a girl that won basically every competition under 6.0 on the Pre-Juvenile level. She landed four "double" jumps (all about 1/2 cheated) and she had decent speed and charisma. When she switched to Juvenile the following year, she placed dead last almost every time and ended up quitting due to frustration. Why? Because her jumps were finally being downgraded and her less than stellar spin positions were finally being accounted for. If this girl knew about these problems at a younger age, she could have avoided the frustration and shock that oftentimes occurs when skaters hit the Juvenile level. That's why IJS needs to be in place for at least Pre-Preliminary - Senior.

Forgive me for going off on a bit of a tangent here, but judging systems aside, how does this skater's coach fit into the whole thing? Cheated jumps and bad spin positions are problems a coach should be addressing, no matter which system a skater is being judged under.

Jenna
02-21-2012, 07:06 PM
Forgive me for going off on a bit of a tangent here, but judging systems aside, how does this skater's coach fit into the whole thing? Cheated jumps and bad spin positions are problems a coach should be addressing, no matter which system a skater is being judged under.

I'm sure the coach knew the jumps were cheated and the spins were poor, albeit fast. But, he also knew she could get away with it...when it came time for Juvenile though, it was too late. 6.0 does not really deduct for cheated jumps, at least not on the same scale as IJS. Hello, Sarah Hughes? The point is that with IJS, the girl never would have had such success on the lower levels. It would force her coach to crack down on her weaknesses...or accept a low placement. This happens a lot, at least in my area, when a girl dominates every level until Juvenile and then falls off the face of the earth.

Aussie Willy
02-21-2012, 09:41 PM
How is that a problem of the system that the skater is being identified for having poor technique and suddenly placing last? Don't blame the system.

We only have IJS for our events because we (well really myself) invested time and money into learning it. Then passing that knowledge onto others. Otherwise we would still be doing local club events under 6.0.

Someone has to take it on and do it.

Jenna
02-21-2012, 11:27 PM
How is that a problem of the system that the skater is being identified for having poor technique and suddenly placing last? Don't blame the system.

We only have IJS for our events because we (well really myself) invested time and money into learning it. Then passing that knowledge onto others. Otherwise we would still be doing local club events under 6.0.

Someone has to take it on and do it.

:huh:

I'm not blaming the system. I AM blaming the skater. If IJS was used in this case the mistakes could have been more easily identified and corrected. IJS would dramatically increase the quality of skating, because skaters would have access to protocol sheets and critiques from the officials at a young age. They would be able to work on their weaknesses in a proactive manner, instead of staring at a bunch of ordinals on the wall with nothing else to make sense of a placement. I speak from experience here.

Aussie Willy
02-21-2012, 11:47 PM
Whilst the judging system is designed to provide feedback, skaters and coaches should not depend on it. It is like video replay. Many competitions don't use it so judges and Tech panels should not be dependent on it when judging.

So it is not a god given right to get access to those. I understand there are some events that don't do it. And as most people doing the data entry are volunteers, it is a case of them being able to have time to do it, be able to upload results to website or put them up on boards to be able to access them.

Nothing peeves me off more than people who stand around after an event demanding protocols. Particularly when you are flat out doing a hundred and one other more important things.

misskarne
02-22-2012, 12:34 AM
For example, I knew a girl that won basically every competition under 6.0 on the Pre-Juvenile level. She landed four "double" jumps (all about 1/2 cheated) and she had decent speed and charisma. When she switched to Juvenile the following year, she placed dead last almost every time and ended up quitting due to frustration. Why? Because her jumps were finally being downgraded and her less than stellar spin positions were finally being accounted for. If this girl knew about these problems at a younger age, she could have avoided the frustration and shock that oftentimes occurs when skaters hit the Juvenile level. That's why IJS needs to be in place for at least Pre-Preliminary - Senior.

No. Don't put that one on the system. That is ENTIRELY a problem with the coach. The coach should have seen that she was cheating jumps etc and fixed it long ago. A good coach would not just let it happen because "she could get away with it under 6.0". Example: my scratch spin is good enough to both pass the Aussie Skate test and count in Aussie Skate competition. Does my coach let it rest just because I can "get away with it" under 6.0? No. She's kicking my backside over it because she's got her eye on my Preliminary test, (hopefully) later this year.

The problems with this girl were known at a much lower level. Both she and the coach were just too lazy to fix it. That's not a fault of the system.

*

I like 6.0 on the whole a lot better than IJS. And for the lower levels it's perfect, because of the elements that don't count under IJS, and levels, and all that stuff.

BUT.

I hate skating under 6.0 because I don't know WHY I get the results I do. I've done two competitions and placed last both times, each time confusing several onlookers who thought I was better than at least one of the others in the (very small) group. It would be nice to know what I did "wrong". They don't even put the scores out of 6 up, they just put up the ordinals. There's no way to tell what elements were not good enough and so on.

(My Dad says the only thing I did "wrong" at the last one was to be at least ten years older than the other competitors. Dads. Gotta love em. :lol:)

IJS has major flaws though. (Not least the whole "fall over four times and still win" thing.) So for lower-level competition it would not be perfect either. Especially when you'd see skaters having to spend half their program doing a footwork sequence because they want to get a certain level to get points. That's just ridiculous.

zaphyre14
02-22-2012, 12:57 AM
I wish that all the people who feel so strongly about extending IJS down to the Pre-Pre levels and below would take the time to go to an IJS Accounting school and see just what it's like to set up a competition under it. I'd also like to know how the parents of those Pre-Pre skaters will feel when the cost of entering a compeltition goes up to $100 or more to cover the increased costs.

Like it or not, most clubs host competitions to make money for the club. IJS events generally do not make money unless they're large multi-day competitions. USFS doe not subsides local club non-quals.

Also, under 6.0, if ou want to know what elements counted and what didn't, all you have to do is ask to speak to a judge. 90% of them are only too happy to explain.