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View Full Version : Should all Competitions,Basic Skills included be judged by our moderen judging system



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sk8girl
02-16-2012, 05:53 PM
There are a few competitions in my area that uses simplified IJS judging for Pre-Preliminary level and up. I know most coaches and judges don't like it. Some kids get < or << or "e" on their single jumps, and I'm not sure if it helps young skaters. Yes, they should learn to rotate jumps and use correct take-off edges, but using the IJS system to judge skaters with single and easier double jumps (2s and 2t) might be too much.

I think getting feedback on underrotated or wrong edge single jumps is a great thing - the earlier the better! Better to correct those problems on your singles, rather than moving onto doubles (and triples) with deeply-ingrained bad habits that will be VERY hard to fix later... (Look at all the elite skaters who are now getting hit by edge calls on their triple flutzes and lips, but are struggling to fix them because that's how they learned their triples (and probably their doubles)... If they were getting hit by edge calls or underrotation calls early on, they would have had the incentive to learn their doubles and triples correctly in the firsrt place.)

Skittl1321
02-16-2012, 06:25 PM
Skate Canada has a modified version of IJS which they have been using very successfully at lower levels for several years now, including for all levels of adult competition in Canada.

I would prefer a modified IJS to a 6.0 system- I agree, the feedback is better. Are they lenient at all on "adult" sit spins. I do like that my sit spin attempt counts in 6.0, it won't ever on IJS.

sk8girl
02-16-2012, 08:03 PM
I would prefer a modified IJS to a 6.0 system- I agree, the feedback is better. Are they lenient at all on "adult" sit spins. I do like that my sit spin attempt counts in 6.0, it won't ever on IJS.

No, they are not lenient on positions, unfortunately. Sit spins do need to be low enough and camel spins and spirals do need to have the free leg high enough... ("Low enough" and "high enough" being defined according to the current ISU standards.)

Soooo, if you know your sit spin isn't low enough (or that your free leg isn't high enough on your camel spin), you wouldn't put it in as an individual spin, because it *definitely* wouldn't count. However, I have found that you CAN get credit for a combo spin which contains a not-low-enough sit spin. I think it's because "intermediate positions" do count towards the revs in a combo spin and a not-quite-there sit would still count as an "intermediate position", even if they don't count it as a "real" sit.

The common strategy I've seen for adult bronze skaters under IJS (assuming they don't have a low enough sit spin) is to do an upright spin on its own (very safe, as long as you get the revs) and a combo spin with upright, not-quite-there-sit (counting as an intermediate position), and maybe some other position. (I have seen "sit"-upright combos get credit as a combo spin, even when the sit is definitely not low enough to count on its own.) Another common strategy for bronze adults is to do an upright and a changefoot upright as your two spins (if you have a backspin, obviously) - that takes away any possible issues with positions!

sk8girl
02-16-2012, 08:36 PM
What I would love to see Skate Canada add to their IJS for low-level categories is something for sit spins that would be equivalent to a "<" underrotated call on a jump. i.e. To get the full base value on a sit spin, you would still need your skating thigh parallel to the ice, but there could be partial credit for a sit spin attempt that's not quite low enough. They could define it in terms of an angle, which would be easy enough for the callers to measure (they are already measuring angles on underrotated jumps). Like, a sit spin with your thigh less than 45 degrees above parallel would get called as a "< sit spin" and receive a certain percentage of the normal base value, but anything higher than that would get no credit.

gkelly
02-16-2012, 08:56 PM
Good suggestion!

I also think the lower base value for moderately cheated jumps is good for us low-level skaters doing single jumps. At least 0.1 final score is better than no value for a downgraded single!

And I would suggest that if the minimum number of revolutions (on each foot) required on a spin is 3, that the spin should get called if there are at least 2 revs and let the judges give negative GOE.

Also it would be good to have a different base value for spins with one feature vs. no features. Even to perform level 2 with two features is a challenge at bronze level (and probably higher than level 2 shouldn't be allowed), but one feature at a time is possible. E.g., backward entry, or the more flexible adults might attempt difficult positions.

jenlyon60
02-16-2012, 09:42 PM
Good suggestion!

I also think the lower base value for moderately cheated jumps is good for us low-level skaters doing single jumps. At least 0.1 final score is better than no value for a downgraded single!

And I would suggest that if the minimum number of revolutions (on each foot) required on a spin is 3, that the spin should get called if there are at least 2 revs and let the judges give negative GOE.

Also it would be good to have a different base value for spins with one feature vs. no features. Even to perform level 2 with two features is a challenge at bronze level (and probably higher than level 2 shouldn't be allowed), but one feature at a time is possible. E.g., backward entry, or the more flexible adults might attempt difficult positions.

What about having the spins and step sequence be unleveled, ie GOE only

gkelly
02-16-2012, 09:45 PM
What about having the spins and step sequence be unleveled, ie GOE only

That would work, if the judges can reward higher difficulty (performed at least adequately) in their GOEs.

I have the same concern about the choreo sequences at higher levels

FSWer
02-17-2012, 12:53 AM
What about having the spins and step sequence be unleveled, ie GOE only

What does that mean?

Skittl1321
02-17-2012, 01:09 AM
What does that mean?

It is like the choreographic step sequence the senior skaters have. You can't earn a level doing features (i.e., Level 4, Level 3) all of them would be called "Level 1" and then the judges just assign GOE based on how good it was.

FSWer
02-17-2012, 01:17 AM
What's a GOE? Do you have a link showing it?

Skittl1321
02-17-2012, 01:34 AM
It is Grade of Execution. They range from -3 to +3. If you do an element really well you get +1, +2, or +3 GOE. If you don't do it well, you get -1, -2, or -3. If you just do it "average" you get 0.

luna_skater
02-17-2012, 02:58 AM
Here's an example of a report card from an interpretive event held in Canada, where only PCS were awarded: http://www.skateabnwtnun.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=kFz8lInB_FU%3d&tabid=18422&language=en-US

Someone mentioned the issue of computers upthread..."going manual" (i.e., judging and calling is all done on paper, without computers), is not difficult or excessively time consuming if you have good data specialists on hand. I've been at numerous competitions where this has been done.

6.0 needs to die in a fire. It makes me shudder to know that it still exists anywhere.

zaphyre14
02-17-2012, 12:34 PM
All the suggestions for a modified IJS are lovely, but the fact remains that IJS is a costly system for clubs to use - costly in ice time (every skater takes an average of 45 to 60 seconds longer than the norm under 6.0), in officials (adding 3 tech panelists to the norm of 5 judges and a referee - and in long competitions, you can't expect the same people to judge every event all day so you need two panels at least) and in equipment (the mini system is expensive to rent and the paper system uses more than 10 times the paper per event that 6.0 uses and takes much longer for the accountants to set up).

Since IJS costs the clubs more to use, they have to raise entry fees to cover their expenses. That puts a lot of competitions out of reach for a lot of the younger, newer competitors and could discourage a lot of parents from keeping their kids in the sport.

antmanb
02-17-2012, 01:28 PM
IJS wouldn't work for basic skills skaters- they would pretty much just get points for an upright spin. Half jumps don't have point values, sit spins that are no parallel to the ice don't get points, their footwork sequences are not full ice so "don't count".

The system would have to have major modification to work for the lowest levels.

Here is an example of IJS used for low level skating. Look at the protocols for the Bronze ladies- many many elements have a value of 0. Now, think of skaters doing even lower level than Bronze (pre-bronze, basic skills freestyle, basic skills)- where would those skaters get points?
http://www.deu-event.de/results/adult2010/index.html

I agree that IJS would not work for lower levels especially those competitions that require a demonstration of elements that are not included in the SOV, however, I looked at the protocols you linked to, and the elements that received no points at all were all in violation of certain rules, which is not so much about the COP itself as much as skaters and or coaches not interpreting the rules correctly, which isn't limited to lower levels - just ask Oda how many times elements he's performed have scored 0!

Skittl1321
02-17-2012, 02:04 PM
I agree that IJS would not work for lower levels especially those competitions that require a demonstration of elements that are not included in the SOV, however, I looked at the protocols you linked to, and the elements that received no points at all were all in violation of certain rules, which is not so much about the COP itself as much as skaters and or coaches not interpreting the rules correctly, which isn't limited to lower levels - just ask Oda how many times elements he's performed have scored 0!

There was one woman who did too many loops, but a lot of the problems were sit spins that get no credit- a huge adult problem, I've seen entire competitions where no one's sit spin would count, and downgraded single jumps, getting them no credit. When you downgrade triples, they still count for something.

At developmental levels, there has to be some leniency.

Although someone described how to get a sit spin to "count" in combo, in IJS you can't do upright spins. For many bronze ladies- the spins they have are sit spin, scratch spin, and backspin. If their sit spin doesn't count, that's out. Then they can't do both a backspin and a scratch spin, so what is left? A single upright spin and then maybe a sit-upright (if the judges count the sit as an intermediate position)? In 6.0 they can do the three single spins. Not differentiating between a backspin and a scratch spin in 6.0 causes a giant problem for people who only have a few spins. In pre-bronze, a lot of ladies are still doing 2 foot spins, which get no points at all.

The competition I linked to is relatively high level bronze skaters- no one who is just barely bronze is going to go to Germany to compete (unless they happen to be from Germany.)

I know my program I'd be lucky to score a double digit. If I fell, I'd likely get a negative score.
My loop would be downgraded for sure, so no value.
I have a waltz jump-toe loop, the waltz jump has no value, that toe loop is generally cheated (sad...). I don't think I'd get any points here.
My sit spin would not count, it is fast, and centered, but not low enough.
My salchow would probably be downgraded, so no value.
My backspin is on the right edge, but I often don't cross my foot, would it count if I'm "not in position"?
My footwork is only half ice- is there provision for that? I might get a few points here.
My toe loop is usually not cheated. It might get me a few points.
My scratch spin is excellent, but I've already done an upright spin, no points here either.


Without major revision, I don't see how this system works for low level skaters.