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AndyWarhol
02-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Surely a coach can't be on a panel to judge their own skater???

If there is a conflict of interested (for instance, your friends kid is a competitor) I was lead to believe you couldn't judge that group.

gkelly
02-18-2012, 02:46 PM
As far was coaches, they should NEVER be allowed on the panel, unless they stop coaching. That is how it used to be, why has it changed?

Active coaches are still not allowed on judging panels.

So what's changed is the introduction of the technical panel.

I think the reason why active coaches are allowed on technical panels is because some of the decisions they have to make require intimate knowledge of technical details that are hard to identify in real time unless you 1) have done them yourself, preferably recently, and/or 2) see and analyze them every day at the rink, not just every few weeks when you're assigned to a competition

E.g., technical specialists for pair skating need to be former pair skaters themselves, and there just aren't enough of those in the world willing to become technical specialists who aren't also making their living as coaches


Surely a coach can't be on a panel to judge their own skater???

A coach cannot be a judge, period.

A coach cannot be on a technical panel if one of their own students, family members, or family member's students is in the group.

For other connections, they should recuse themselves if there's a conflict.

(I haven't looked up the specific rules)

Sylvia
02-18-2012, 02:47 PM
Excerpts from ISU Rule 409: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-202745-219968-166758-0-file,00.pdf

3. Technical Controller
The Technical Controllers are recruited from ISU Referees and Judges and
International Referees and Judges list, qualified in the ISU Judging System
based on nominations received from Members and confirmed by the respective
Technical Committee and who
– have the highest knowledge of Single and/or Pair Skating and/or Ice Dance
with regard to technical aspects;
– must have a good knowledge of spoken English language;
– must possess good communication skills;
– must be able to take directions and work within a team environment;
– must have completed an ISU seminar and successfully passed an
Examination;
– must adhere fully to the ISU Code of Ethics.

...

4. Technical Specialist/Assistant Technical Specialist
The Technical Specialists and the Assistant Technical Specialists are recruited
from the group of Coaches, Skaters no longer competing in ISU Events and
International Competitions, ISU/International Judges or ISU/International
Referees, based on nomination received by Members and who
– have the highest knowledge of Single and/or Pair Skating and/or Ice Dance
with regard to technical aspects;
– are involved on at least a weekly basis for this discipline on site;
– must be a former high level Skater (as a minimum at national level);
– must have a good knowledge of spoken English language;
– must possess good communication skills;
– must be able to take directions and work within a team environment;
– must have completed an ISU seminar and successfully passed an
Examination;
– must adhere fully to the ISU Code of Ethics.
...
A Referee or Judge, confirmed as a Technical Specialist cannot act as a Judge in
the same season.

cruisin
02-18-2012, 03:00 PM
Active coaches are still not allowed on judging panels.

So what's changed is the introduction of the technical panel.

I see that as a thin line. They may not, technically be judging, but they are setting up the judging. I don't think coaches should be involved in the judging process, at all. Unless, as I said, they stop coaching.

johndockley92
02-18-2012, 06:43 PM
being. on. the. tech. panel. is. not. judging.

I can tell you that being on the panel, the controllers are so concentrated on trying to figure out the levels and everything that they have no time to bias.

demetriosj
02-18-2012, 07:51 PM
being. on. the. tech. panel. is. not. judging.

I can tell you that being on the panel, the controllers are so concentrated on trying to figure out the levels and everything that they have no time to bias.

& I've got some lovely ocean-front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you...........

query5
02-18-2012, 09:51 PM
hard to answer, the cop isnt bad they just have to justify the pcs portion more,

the 6 '0s was subjective but at least if they fell and screwed up they didn't win.

i think if they would have mandortory deductions for not doing the required elements in the short,
have more deductions in pc portion for a fall,
i don't know how can bring back 6'0s now ,even with change, make the artistry portion more quantifiable in the 6'os.

Aussie Willy
02-19-2012, 12:36 AM
Typical snarky response to legitimate questions and concerns about the judging/judges/coaches involved in this sport and how can things be cleaned up!

& we always have to be reminded too that the judges are volunteers...
And you are not snarky yourself? :lol: Pot calling the kettle black hey!

It is not just judges that are volunteers. The sport at club level and internationally is run by parents, skaters and many others who give hours so you can have a sport to bitch about. You go to a world championships and everyone there is a volunteer, from those doing the announcing, playing the music, doing the data entry, doing the ushering, etc etc. The Olympics for god sake runs on a volunteer workforce.

Judges are just one of the volunteer groups in the sport. If they along with everyone else stops volunteering and you don't have sport. That simple really.

RD
02-19-2012, 03:06 PM
I remember the debate a while back whether judges should be paid professionals as opposed to volunteers, some who might even be closely connected to one or more of the skaters...

Still, as long as you have a human element like that, it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate bias entirely. But you still want to minimize it as much as possible. Has the ISU done everything in its power to do so?

cruisin
02-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Judges are just one of the volunteer groups in the sport. If they along with everyone else stops volunteering and you don't have sport. That simple really.

Yes, the actual judging is not paid. However, the judges' travel, hotel, food are all paid for, and some (depending on the country) receive a stipend. They are usually put up in pretty nice hotels (nicer than the athletes/coaches). So, yes, they do volunteer time and they do have to make work absence arrangements, but they do get some perks.

The people working at the events do it on a completely volunteer basis. It usually costs them to help. Since they have to pay their own expenses, except for access to hospitality (minimal food) at venues.

bruno6
02-19-2012, 03:25 PM
All I have to say is look at the tek panel
Of the grand prix events.. Then look at grand
Prix final panel!!! Coaches can not be Judges!!! You will see more coaches with skin in the
Game trying to corrupt the tek levels!! Also who decides.... Alla Russia's biggest bias judge is head of that
Committee . She chooses what tek judges go where. And then Peter Kriek has to
Approve it. He is probably the only one who is on the up and up.
Knows the corrupt players and tries to devide . When he Knows!!!

bruno6
02-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Wrong judges are payed. But it's a minimal amount
Plus thier travel.

bruno6
02-19-2012, 03:26 PM
Their lol

briancoogaert
02-19-2012, 03:36 PM
IMO, the best should be a mix between CoP and 6.0. I mean, CoP scores only used rank skaters.

bruno6
02-19-2012, 03:42 PM
I say bombard ... The Italian ass with occupy skating.
Letter, protest lol. He will cave to the pressure. And final
Change it.