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Zemgirl
02-16-2012, 09:19 PM
Chan didn't fall in 4CC this year, he had hands down. Since it wasn't a fall, the deduction for it shows up in PCS as opposed to a deduction from his total. He didn't splat or zambonie the ice. If you want to see an actual FALL, check out Dai's quad attempt.
This strikes me as a K&C topic, but since it came up here - IceIceBaby is correct; here is the relevant part (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-202793-220016-166867-0-file,00.pdf) of the ISU regulations:

A fall is defined as: “loss of control by a skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm.”

Chan's weight was supported by his hands (not just a hand down), not his blades, so it's pretty clear that the technical panel erred in this case (but Daylife got it right (http://www.daylife.com/photo/00Ld0GMdA9bQW)!) Which can happen, but let's not pretend it wasn't a fall. The rules apply to everyone, Patrick Chan included.

Aussie Willy
02-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Wow, I didn't know that coaches are allowed to be technical controllers!:eek:

Coaches are not Technical Controller. They do Technical Specialist and Assistant TS role.

Technical Controllers are judges who then step into a TC role. And focus just on identifying elements and levels.



Really don't think the system of judging is the main problem.

The relationships between coaches and judges are so incestuous it's sickening. Coaches and judges and skaters traveling together to international events, for example, with coaches continuously sucking up to the judges who will be judging their skaters.... Calling judges under the guise of asking advise about their skater, all the while just kissing up.....constantly trying to curry favor for their skater...

How can any one system even begin to fix this type of mess?
And you know this because ......?

bruno6
02-16-2012, 11:03 PM
A tek specialist is a Judge!! They are calling levels ... How ... On how they Think
The skaters are preforming. So they are using their human judgment! To call the level
That is why if the assistant tek specialist does not agree they call for a review . That
Is judging .. End of story however you wish to spin it ... A duck quacks!!! I agree
100 percent with demetriosj. I also know Sissy Kriek very well she is a wonderful person.
So if it looks like a duck it is . And no coach should be on the tek list at all!!

caseyedwards
02-16-2012, 11:24 PM
Were you responding to something other than the voices in your head?

Because this post was right after mine I am going to say it was meant for me and say I was responding directly to something in the article. The way Armour seems to cast aspersions on a quad with mistake being worth more than a triple flip.

cruisin
02-16-2012, 11:30 PM
Because this post was right after mine I am going to say it was meant for me and say I was responding directly to something in the article. The way Armour seems to cast aspersions on a quad with mistake being worth more than a triple flip.

Personally, I think a clean, well executed triple should be worth more than a poorly executed quad, with a mistake. In my opinion a quad that is landed with hands on the ice is not complete. If we reward jumps that are poorly done or incomplete, everyone will just do crappy quads and get credit for trying. That's not what skating should stand for.

gkelly
02-17-2012, 12:35 AM
If we reward jumps that are poorly done or incomplete, everyone will just do crappy quads and get credit for trying.

Well, not everyone. Most people -- most skaters -- can't rotate quads, so if they try the best they'll come up with is crappy triples (if they're lucky) or worse than that.

However, for the maybe few dozen skaters in the world who are capable of rotating more than 3 1/2 times from a backward takeoff, I agree that rewarding them less for a solid triple than for an attempt that isn't close to a clean quad would not be the best way to go.

bruno6
02-17-2012, 12:39 AM
And for the record Aussie willy your wrong
A coach can be tek control.. All three evaluate
The levels!!!

professordeb
02-17-2012, 01:58 AM
This strikes me as a K&C topic, but since it came up here - IceIceBaby is correct; here is the relevant part (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-202793-220016-166867-0-file,00.pdf) of the ISU regulations:

Chan's weight was supported by his hands (not just a hand down), not his blades, so it's pretty clear that the technical panel erred in this case (but Daylife got it right (http://www.daylife.com/photo/00Ld0GMdA9bQW)!) Which can happen, but let's not pretend it wasn't a fall. The rules apply to everyone, Patrick Chan included.

Thanks for finding that information.

All I can say is perhaps in the eyes of the technical panel, they thought that the majority of Patrick's balance wasn't on his his hands. Truth to tell, I can't tell you what was in their minds when they watched that "fall".

I still prefer COP to 6.0 but would agree that this disease is far from cured. It does seem to have gotten a small shot towards becoming healthy.

zilam98
02-17-2012, 02:19 AM
The problem is, the fewer people attend, the fewer media coverage there is, so it's really vicious cylce until, maybe, another Michelle Kwan pops up, I guess.

it will be a while before this current generation of skaters produces a kwan. this generation is still trying to learn how to work the CoP system while mastering jumps.

topaz
02-17-2012, 02:23 AM
I don't see how FS can get rid of COP and stay in the Olys. The IOC basically told the ISU "make it more a sport and less an art or walk" so they really didn't have a choice.

Even if The Artist wins best picture, the old B&W glory days of hollywood are never coming back, and neither is 6.0

This!!

luna_skater
02-17-2012, 02:51 AM
Coaches are not Technical Controller. They do Technical Specialist and Assistant TS role.

Technical Controllers are judges who then step into a TC role. And focus just on identifying elements and levels.


Not always. TS's can train to become TC's, and vice versa.

bruno6
02-17-2012, 04:14 AM
My best suggestion is email the ISU tell them how you feel about the judging games.
And coaches being allowed to judge... They say.. they read every email .... amen.

Maofan7
02-17-2012, 01:55 PM
New article (http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Figure+skating+slides+into+fringes/6160505/story.html) on the subject

cruisin
02-17-2012, 02:12 PM
Well, not everyone. Most people -- most skaters -- can't rotate quads, so if they try the best they'll come up with is crappy triples (if they're lucky) or worse than that.

True, there was a little hyperbole there on my part :). But, you did get my point, that rewarding a more "difficult jump" poorly done should not be rewarded over a less difficult jump excellently done.


it will be a while before this current generation of skaters produces a kwan. this generation is still trying to learn how to work the CoP system while mastering jumps.

I wonder if it ever will work itself out. It's not just the judging system and the judging. We are also changing skating to accommodate the audience. We've eliminated figures from competition and the test structure and now compulsory dances may go the same way (already out of competition, hopefully not testing). Have we compromised edge and technical skating ability for entertainment? If you look at most of the outstanding skaters like Kwan and before, they all did figures. If not all of the tests, at least the first few. They got the basics. Now, it seems that skaters just want to get to the tricks and the sport just wants to reward the tricks. The quality of pure skating has diminished. Ultimately that will effect the tricks, as well.

berthesghost
02-17-2012, 02:25 PM
^not buying that audience has all that power over skating. If anything, they seem to have no power. Skating isn't even shown on tv in the US anymore.

I think it's hard to convince the IOC that the ability to retrace a circle over and over again perfectly, or repeat a dance step over and over again perfect is "sport".

When you see athletes land historic 1st 3x or 1st 4t and then end up in places like 10th, it's hard to sell fs as a progressive "modern" sport.