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View Full Version : 2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?



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IceAlisa
02-15-2012, 10:53 PM
delete

maharbabackward
02-15-2012, 10:58 PM
I think that GOE is not being used as effectively as it should be. In this way, skaters may benefit from doing a simpler level of an element really well (think Angela N.'s layback spin with no change of edge or position) versus a hard level that looks awkward and slow (see many level 4 spins that contort). It's also confusing to see twizzles (example: D/W from skate america sd) get +GOE when there's a glaring unison problem. I think that if there is a mistake on an element, it should be negative goe. I don't care if the take off, air position, height, and difficult arm position if the person two-foot's the jump. It should get negative goe. and I think that's what is confounding people. I still think how Lambiel got lower spin scores than if I recall correctly Lysacek or Plushenko (I'm not completely sure about this, but I know it occured). Sure, Stephan's spins maybe didn't switch an edge or didn't contort himself to a bad position but he still spun better than anyone in the men's competition and this was evident to even ones with just basic knowledge of the elements.

peibeck
02-15-2012, 11:21 PM
I just don't get why people think going back to a system that had absolutely no transparency is the way to go. And it was really just a placement system. Whether you think PCS are being misused or not, they are laid bare for all to see (boy it just gives fans more to complain about so everyone should be happy). And people seem to forget that the system is for the skaters, coaches and judges, who are the ones that are really affected by it.


I absolutely do appreciate that skaters, coaches and choreographers can get nearly instant feedback on their programs, but I would disagree that COP is all that transparent when the judges remain hidden and can give their marks anonymously.

And, in most cases, though not all, it seems judges still use PCS as placemarkers rather than as objectively as they could. I mean, look at Plushenko averaging 8.25 for transitions in his free skate at Europeans. What does that say about the knowledge of the judges? Yes, he should win the tech marks and perhaps the performance/execution marks, but for transitions as well? Really? C'mon! :lol: It's dubious things like that which make me feel like figure skating judging has not changed in the least since the days of 6.0.

Aussie Willy
02-15-2012, 11:33 PM
I absolutely do appreciate that skaters, coaches and choreographers can get nearly instant feedback on their programs, but I would disagree that COP is all that transparent when the judges remain hidden and can give their marks anonymously.

You are only looking at what happens at major international events where the judges are put into random order. At most national and local competitions, the judges are identified. So for all those skaters who compete at those levels the judges are totally transparent. And there are a lot more skaters doing those events than those who compete in international events.

bruno6
02-15-2012, 11:42 PM
I think the problem is with the judges, not the system. What's mind boggling to me is why coaches are now teck controllers. That is bias in it's purest form. And should be illegal. They are judging skaters. Grand prix events should not allow coaches who have
Teams in the grand prix judge their rival skaters. This is a joke. Save the system out the
Judges...

peibeck
02-16-2012, 12:13 AM
You are only looking at what happens at major international events where the judges are put into random order. At most national and local competitions, the judges are identified. So for all those skaters who compete at those levels the judges are totally transparent. And there are a lot more skaters doing those events than those who compete in international events.

:) Thanks, Aussie Willy. That is good to know. I know at US Nationals and smaller events here the judges are also identified.

However, I still think it is a mistake for the governing body of the sport to hide the judges behind anonymous marks. The 2002 judging scandal was about collusion, and that is something that has not been dealt with, but indeed, completely ignored. The creation of a different judging system can only do so much if the basic problem remains. This is not to say I think all international judges are corrupt, but when one sees marks like the ones I posted above about Plushenko's transitions... :shuffle:

Aussie Willy
02-16-2012, 12:28 AM
I think the problem is with the judges, not the system. What's mind boggling to me is why coaches are now teck controllers. That is bias in it's purest form. And should be illegal. They are judging skaters. Grand prix events should not allow coaches who have
Teams in the grand prix judge their rival skaters. This is a joke. Save the system out the
Judges...
Knowing a few Technical Specialist, including those who have done international events, the last thing they are looking at when doing their job is the skater themselves. They are focussing so much on the elements and levels that who the is skater is irrelevant. It is actually the most unemotional and detached aspect of how skaters are evaluated and personality is taken right out of the equation. Sit on a technical panel doing data entry or video replay and you will see how it works. Plus there are 3 people sitting in that seat, not one.

As for it being coaches doing the TS role, there they are not allowed to be on panels where their own skaters are competing (even at a local level competitions). And many of them are not your top international coaches anyway so they would not be doing TS for events they have skaters competing in.

At the end of the day, the workforce is volunteer so I ask who do you propose to take on those roles if you don't think it should be coaches?

demetriosj
02-16-2012, 02:02 AM
I think the problem is with the judges, not the system. What's mind boggling to me is why coaches are now teck controllers. That is bias in it's purest form. And should be illegal. They are judging skaters. Grand prix events should not allow coaches who have
Teams in the grand prix judge their rival skaters. This is a joke. Save the system out the
Judges...



I'll second that!

johndockley92
02-16-2012, 03:01 AM
^^ Also I'm pretty sure they can't call at any qualifying competitions in the same level as their skater??

essence_of_soy
02-16-2012, 05:47 AM
Sissy Krick gave Tonya Harding a 6.0 at Skate America in 1991. Boy, would I love to ask her what it was like to see that performance LIVE.

essence_of_soy
02-16-2012, 05:52 AM
I read somewhere and it was an article directly related to skating competition attendance and ratings (apart from a lack of coverage), that numbers were down because of the vast array of entertainment choices available now versus a decade ago.

essence_of_soy
02-16-2012, 05:59 AM
Though CoP is a big improvement over the 6.0 system, for the average fan, it is still too complicated.

At least with 6.0, though it was a puzzle as to why skaters were given the marks they got, there was a mark for technical merit (what they did) artistic impression (how they did it), and a ceiling as well. Yes, the placements determined the winners ultimately, but it just looked neater.

With CoP, there is a technical element score, but 5 elements that make up the program component score. Especially when there is crossover between skating skills, transitions, performance, choreography and interpretation, why not just have one mark instead.

Zemgirl
02-16-2012, 07:27 AM
I am judging with Sissy Krick this week at an adult event here in Melbourne. Met her the other night at a seminar she did for us. She is a very passionate and knowlegable woman and it is lovely of her to come and do our event.
That is nice of her, definitely. My post came across like some sort of corruption allegation, didn't it? I meant just that is was a rather strange call to have S/P ahead of B/S in the SP.



I think the problem is with the judges, not the system. What's mind boggling to me is why coaches are now teck controllers. That is bias in it's purest form. And should be illegal. They are judging skaters. Grand prix events should not allow coaches who have
Teams in the grand prix judge their rival skaters. This is a joke. Save the system out the
Judges...

Knowing a few Technical Specialist, including those who have done international events, the last thing they are looking at when doing their job is the skater themselves. They are focussing so much on the elements and levels that who the is skater is irrelevant. It is actually the most unemotional and detached aspect of how skaters are evaluated and personality is taken right out of the equation. Sit on a technical panel doing data entry or video replay and you will see how it works. Plus there are 3 people sitting in that seat, not one.
I imagine tech callers are dedicated and try to be impartial at all times. That having been said - it does look bad, even if nobody's doing anything wrong, because it creates an appearance of possible impropriety, something skating doesn't need.

Aussie Willy
02-16-2012, 12:07 PM
That is nice of her, definitely. My post came across like some sort of corruption allegation, didn't it? I meant just that is was a rather strange call to have S/P ahead of B/S in the SP.
I didn't read it that way at all. :)

BTW I judged with Sissy today. She is a very natural and down to earth person. Even when I was having major problems with the computers she just went with the flow. Absolutely dedicated and passionate about skating.


I imagine tech callers are dedicated and try to be impartial at all times. That having been said - it does look bad, even if nobody's doing anything wrong, because it creates an appearance of possible impropriety, something skating doesn't need.
But the problem in skating is that most judges, skaters and coaches know each other anyway. It is such a small community, even worldwide, that those perceptions are unavoidable.

bruno6
02-16-2012, 02:19 PM
I will disagree with you there.. I to know
Many tek controllers and while some are on the
Up and up, others become tek controllers to
Corrupt! I think Peter Kriek who should run for Isu head
Replacing the ass.... Who is there now. He really cares about
The skaters and hates this corruption . Thank god he I's there
And has to ok Tek panel. He try's to balance out the
Bullshit. But Alla is head of tek committee .