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View Full Version : 2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?



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EBASKoroleva
02-15-2012, 07:22 AM
YES.

Bournekraatzfan
02-15-2012, 07:32 AM
I just don't get why people think going back to a system that had absolutely no transparency is the way to go. And it was really just a placement system. Whether you think PCS are being misused or not, they are laid bare for all to see (boy it just gives fans more to complain about so everyone should be happy). And people seem to forget that the system is for the skaters, coaches and judges, who are the ones that are really affected by it.

At the end of the day it is a system that was created by humans which is used by humans for what is really a subjectively judged sport that is very difficult to put exact measureable outcomes on. As a result you are never going to make everyone happy. Because there are too many human factors that come into play in it's creation and application.

this

and this:



Judging (PCS) remains questionable at times, but this isn't a new problem with COP so much as COP can not deal with this old, long-standing problem.

I was really upset for Takahashi/Tran this weekend...I really don't understand how their PCS marks could be so low. But I think the Artistic Impression category of the 6.0 system would have produced the same result. And at least newer, lesser-known or lower ranked teams can earn points for their elements by getting their levels. I know there is the potential for tech specialists to be harder on some skaters than others, and for the judges to withhold higher GOEs when it comes to relatively unknown teams, but it sure was encouraging to see Yu/Wang get a level 4 for their first rumba sequence.

and I remember a lot of incorrectly executed jumps being rewarded under 6.0. If a fall shouldn't get a skater the points, should an underrotated jump or that done with an incorrect edge?

johndockley92
02-15-2012, 04:47 PM
I think CoP is a zillion times better than 6.0, but it's also very far from perfect. It has its own flaws and its own ridiculousness.

It leaves very little space for creativity. All the programs are so similar.
It kills the real artistry in the name of transitions.
It makes people do ugly things just to get higher levels on elements.
It kills ice dance big time.
The judging stays subjective anyway.

I really disagree with that. Sitting at nationals, I watched Rudy's winning FS on the jumbotron and realized how far skating has come. Honestly, Josh Farris' programs are more interesting than Rudy's was. Sure at the time he was great, but skating has progressed so far. Skaters are learning to do transitions AND be artistic at the same time. Skaters who just do the transitions (like Angela Wang) without the artistry still get punished in the component mark; while skaters like Ashley Cain who have beautiful artistry and no transitions, still end up with some of the highest component marks.

PDilemma
02-15-2012, 05:59 PM
I think the fact that the judges are the same people who caused the disputes under 6.0, now protected by anonymity, reduces the value of the CoP as a "cure" for the pairs scandal.

I agree. And CoP provides a bigger smoke screen. Complicated reams of numbers and factors and +/- GOEs can be used to justify any outcome.

Mafke
02-15-2012, 06:58 PM
For the 100th time, I'm very sympathetic to a lot of the ideas behind CoP but ... there's so many things wrong with it...

One random thing I hate, hate, HATE! is the idea that good footwork requires a lot of upper body movement. This seems to fly in the face of a 100 years of tradition stressing upper body control (no matter what the skates are doing).

Also the scoring for jumps and spins is too similar, they're very different kinds of skills and the scoring needs to reflect that.

Also, there's a huge amount of evidence that different skaters find different jumps to have different levels of difficulty so having scoring them as if all skaters found the lutz harder than the flip (when IIRC the flip has a significantly higher failure rate in competition) doesn't make much sense.

There's more .... without even getting into the damage it's done to pairs.

PDilemma
02-15-2012, 07:09 PM
One random thing I hate, hate, HATE! is the idea that good footwork requires a lot of upper body movement. This seems to fly in the face of a 100 years of tradition stressing upper body control (no matter what the skates are doing).
sense.



Yeah, I am puzzled by this as well. I've been doing an adult beginning ballet class and the hardest thing is to do certain movements with legs and feet and keep the upper body still. It requires core strength and control of both halves of the body. I don't understand, other than maybe in terms of balance, how the excessive upper body movement is demonstrating any control or strength.

gkelly
02-15-2012, 07:17 PM
There's a difference between uncontrolled upper body movement that results from instability in the body core and instability over the edges vs. upper body movement that is an intentional choreographic choice that challenges the stability (and therefore indicates higher skill if the skater can deviate from a neutral position without losing control).

However, with some choreographic choices it's easy to use the intentional movements to cover up for less than optimal control, so there won't always be a direct correlation between the amount of intentional movement and the level of skill.

PDilemma
02-15-2012, 07:34 PM
There's a difference between uncontrolled upper body movement that results from instability in the body core and instability over the edges vs. upper body movement that is an intentional choreographic choice that challenges the stability (and therefore indicates higher skill if the skater can deviate from a neutral position without losing control).

However, with some choreographic choices it's easy to use the intentional movements to cover up for less than optimal control, so there won't always be a direct correlation between the amount of intentional movement and the level of skill.

I get the sense we are seeing more of your second paragraph than your first. That's my problem with it.

Zemgirl
02-15-2012, 08:47 PM
I can't say I was very impressed with the article; the scandal was more complex than the way it was described, and it just seemed like someone tried to condense what should have been a longer piece into the length than the WaPo ran.

As for CoP - I like the idea of it, but have issues with the implementation. I don't think skating can or should go back to 6.0, but the current system needs more than the usual post-season tweaks. And I'm another fan who's not happy about the emphasis on upper-body movement in step sequences.


Just wondering are any of those judges still around? I would hope not. Hoping they were banished to detriot or siberia.
What, the SLC pairs panel? Were there accusations of wrongdoing against anyone but Le Gougne? These were the officials and judges:

Referee Ron Pfenning ISU
Assistant Referee Alexander Lakernik ISU
Judge No.1 Marina Sanaia Russia
Judge No.2 Jiasheng Yang China
Judge No.3 Lucy Brennan USA
Judge No.4 Marie-Reine Le Gougne France
Judge No.5 Anna Sierocka Poland
Judge No.6 Benoit Lavoie Canada
Judge No.7 Vladislav Petukhov Ukraine
Judge No.8 Sissy Krick Germany
Judge No.9 Hideo Sugita Japan

Ron Pfenning lost his eligibility for his role in the establishment of the short-lived WSF. Alexander Lakernik is chair of the ISU's singles and pairs technical committee; there's an interview with him over on GSD. I believe most of the judges continued on at least for a few years; Anna Sierocka, for instance, was the referee of the pairs event at 2012 Euros, and Sissy Krick was the technical controller for the ladies' event.

Marie-Reine Le Gougne has tried to run for president of the FFSG in the past, without success.

Benoît Lavoie is the president of Skate Canada. He and Sissy Krick were the two judges to place S/P first in the SP. I'm sure they had very good reasons for doing so.

Mafke
02-15-2012, 09:28 PM
I get the sense we are seeing more of your second paragraph than your first.

thank you for saying it more quickly and eloquently than I could/would have.

Aussie Willy
02-15-2012, 10:04 PM
He and Sissy Krick were the two judges to place S/P first in the SP. I'm sure they had very good reasons for doing so.
I am judging with Sissy Krick this week at an adult event here in Melbourne. Met her the other night at a seminar she did for us. She is a very passionate and knowlegable woman and it is lovely of her to come and do our event.

Rochelle
02-15-2012, 10:05 PM
I really disagree with that. Sitting at nationals, I watched Rudy's winning FS on the jumbotron and realized how far skating has come. Honestly, Josh Farris' programs are more interesting than Rudy's was. Sure at the time he was great, but skating has progressed so far. Skaters are learning to do transitions AND be artistic at the same time. Skaters who just do the transitions (like Angela Wang) without the artistry still get punished in the component mark; while skaters like Ashley Cain who have beautiful artistry and no transitions, still end up with some of the highest component marks.

This I agree with! I have the same thoughts when watching many of the elite, winning, "memorable" performances from 1994-2002ish.

Another thing that's great about COP is the immediate feedback about the elements executed. For a skater to be able to see immediately that they are loosing credit for underrotated jumps, edge calls, weak spins, weak foortwork, etc. is a huge help in terms of communication between the officials judging the event, and the skaters/coaches/parents.

Judges still deduct for such poor quality elements in 6.0 (at their own personal, individual scale, since scores behave more as an overall placeholder in the 6.0 system) -- the skaters are just left in the dark on where they 'lost points', other than the feedback of their final overall result. At most American local non-quals, skaters don't even see their tech score / presentation score under 6.0 judging -- just their total ordinal placement from each judge. Thus, what competitors often don't see that when the ordinals are all over the place, that it's often because the officials all had those competitors scored with totals ranging 0.0(tie breaker used) to 0.2 apart.

demetriosj
02-15-2012, 10:25 PM
Yes, it has.......

IceAlisa
02-15-2012, 10:41 PM
I think CoP is a zillion times better than 6.0, but it's also very far from perfect. It has its own flaws and its own ridiculousness.

It leaves very little space for creativity. All the programs are so similar.
It kills the real artistry in the name of transitions.
It makes people do ugly things just to get higher levels on elements.
It kills ice dance big time.
The judging stays subjective anyway.

Well said. CoP has lots of issues, including those you've listed, however, it does help to focus on specific elements and problems and gives you a lot more information about a performance than a mere 6.0 mark.

IceAlisa
02-15-2012, 10:52 PM
I think CoP is a zillion times better than 6.0, but it's also very far from perfect. It has its own flaws and its own ridiculousness.

It leaves very little space for creativity. All the programs are so similar.
It kills the real artistry in the name of transitions.
It makes people do ugly things just to get higher levels on elements.
It kills ice dance big time.
The judging stays subjective anyway.

Well said. CoP has lots of issues that you've listed, however, it does help to focus on specific elements and problems and gives you a lot more information about a performance than a mere 6.0 mark.