PDA

View Full Version : 2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17

winterchik
02-21-2012, 11:34 AM
a few random thoughts

I am aware of only 3 top profile coach's that did any major competitions this year (and none where they skaters were present).. and don't forget...it needs two to tango,and they must dance in silence or else the 3rd person will report them

To be a technical specialist you must have a great physical understanding of the sport and be in contact with it very often( coach's and former skaters are ideal) is there Bias or favour of course there is...... but its only because they are humans..... not coach's

People don't rob banks because they known what will be after......
,in the days the odds were better there was more banks being robbed..you get what I'm saying

It is easy to fix a panel of 7 or 9 judges then it was when there were 11 judges "simple maths'

the most honest Judges in ice dance are New Zealand Australians and Japanese ( not saying there are the best judges in experience or knowledge but the most un bias)

A coach with a stable full of different nationalities just needs only to pick the correct competitions to have the "majority rules"

judges in international competition are there to fly the flag ,"in this department there is no difference in a Russian. American. Canadian. Italian.or French judge just to mention few"

Major competitions protocols today makes most( judges) invisible..so if you cheat maybe 8 out 10 is because you want to do it( yes there are exceptions to the rules)

bruno6
02-21-2012, 01:55 PM
Really, funny I can't name .. Names but I can think of
A few that are, or going to take the test for that exact reason.
If corruption is in the judges pool.. It will be in tek.
Why would you think just because a coaches skaters isn't there
The coached rival team may be. You don't think by knocking thieir tek
Scores down alittle to advance that coaches career . That they are not thinking that
You would be surprised. They can have cop pms OCD
Call it what you want. Corruption plays a major part of the Isu period.
That's why if you look at smaller venues. It's easier to corrupt. And you will see
Wild scores give to team so diffrent then when they are judged at more
Prominent events. And I know there will be at least 10 people posting something
To disagree but I say ... Only with this subject I know differently .
Cut down on the corruption and why wouldn't they want as least controversy as possible.
Judges do not coach.. They are very knowledgeable ... Same should be followed for tek..
THEY ARE Judgeing.. Giving levels..

cruisin
02-21-2012, 02:01 PM
Are we watching the same system? The way in which a skater's rank is determined under CoP could not be more different from 6.0.

I agree the method is different, it is the bias that is the same. The primary focus is who the top places and the bottom places are. If you believe that CoP has changed that, and that the judges have not figured out how to work it, I believe you are kidding yourself.


Are you a skater? Have you had difficulty getting feedback about your programs based on the protocols you receive? Have you ever been in a position to file a protest against results? Are you an official who's ever had to justify your marks to a skater, event referee, or panel of your peers?

If none of the above, then you don't have any insight into the level of accountability that does or does not exist.

Let's just say I have insight. Are you any of the above? Understanding CoP is one thing. Understanding the actual implementation of any judging system can be quite another. No one protests results (except for SLC Olympics), no one wants to go up against the judges. When has an official ever had to justify their marks to a skater? They might, if requested, explain the marks/critique the skater (AKA make excuses), but justify - please. They may have to explain themselves to a referee, but that doesn't change the marks. And I've never seen a judge penalized for questionable results (again, with the exception of SLC Olympics).

I will say this again, there are many judges who are fair and try to do their best without bias. But, anyone who thinks that CoP cannot be manipulated is naive.

winterchik
02-21-2012, 02:06 PM
Judges do not coach.. They are very knowledgeable ... Same should be followed for tek..
THEY ARE Judgeing.. Giving levels..
a good % of ISU judges need retraining...

People can take the test TS for international level then wait two year to do the ISU test (mean while they must do a few International competitions or two Nationals,,,and still after they do all this ISU may or may not give them a assignment...and if in a period of time don't get a assignment YOU NEED TO SEAT FOR THE EXAM AGAIN. Looks easy doesn't

this are the 3 TS i was making reference to
Ms. Galit CHAIT-MORACCI..............Ekaterina BUGROV / Vasili ROGOV
Mr. Roberto PELIZZOLA..................Jasmine TESSARI / Stefano COLAFATO
Ms. Maria TUMANOVSKAYA................Maria NOSULIA / Evgen KHOLONIUK

bruno6
02-21-2012, 02:37 PM
Well isn't that apples and oranges... Yes , there I do agree
With you everyone should be tested Regularly .
But passing a test will not cut down on corruption .

winterchik
02-21-2012, 02:44 PM
Well isn't that apples and oranges... Yes , there I do agree
With you everyone should be tested Regularly .
But passing a test will not cut down on corruption .

well it would be better to have a well informed corrupted judge then a corrupted judge that looks at the colour of costume ,the make up and hair..as no understanding of patterns or steps of a dance..
At least there is hope for the first

bruno6
02-21-2012, 02:51 PM
I guess cruisin, you have seen and know what I know..
So trying to convince some of these people ..
Is hitting a brick wall. I only wish I could take some on the next
Round of judging with my family member. If they have hair it would all
Be gone by the time they returned!!

Sylvia
02-21-2012, 02:53 PM
It's not us you need to convince...

bruno6
02-21-2012, 02:59 PM
Now that's a really rediculious statement .
I dont know one judge and there is not retest or not
Who judges on costume and make-up. But it's good to say
Something .

bruno6
02-21-2012, 03:01 PM
Sorry I don't know one judge .. Even if they took a test
Or be retest ... That judges purely on makeup and costume.

bruno6
02-21-2012, 03:16 PM
O and if you go back and look again, I think the coaches
You name have more then one team they are coaching

cruisin
02-21-2012, 03:18 PM
It's not us you need to convince...

You're right. This is just a place to express frustration. The system is what it is. It's been like this for a long time. Hopefully, with new blood coming in, the problems will get better.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the thing that bothers me is that skating had a chance to publicly fix itself after SLC. They could have dealt with what everyone "suspected" was going on. But they didn't. They ignored the real problem and changed the "system", claiming it would make it more difficult to judge with bias or make deals. For me that is ludicrous. That is admitting there is a problem with integrity, but not dealing with it. Any system can be manipulated, it may take some time to figure it out, but it can be done. There was never anything wrong with the math. Are there better ways of creating scores? Sure, but that was not the problem. It was the human beings using the math, that were the problem. It hurts skaters and it hurts the honest judges. It made all judges suspect, and that is not true.

berthesghost
02-21-2012, 03:58 PM
:lol:
So thaaaat's the secret to achieving figure skating popularity in United States! Honestly, that's so sad.like most things in life, it's a lot more complicated than one tidy answer.

Established pros.:Hamilton and yamaguchi were "once in a lifetime" pro skaters who showed a dedication and passion unheard of before and after them. throw in Wylie and wow.

Recent Olympians: class of 94 was unique in that it coupled established pros with having been recently seen at the olys so bringing in new viewers. Boitano, Witt, t&d and g&g we're also amazing stars who showed an amazing transition from eligable to pro. Couple that with skaters like baiul (who's one of the most charismatic skaters to ever lace up), sato, u&z, browning, and kerrigan (who was popular and had endorsements out the wazoo pre-whack) and you truly have an all star cast people want to see.

Class of 98 was filled with duds IMHO (tara, chen, candeloro, k&d, a g&p that never was) so it's no wonder sales declined. :blah:

The bubble may have been controlling things, but the embarasment of great skaters 94-98 followed by the 98-02 skaters that were frankly, just embarrassing, really helped it along.

luna_skater
02-21-2012, 05:35 PM
I agree the method is different, it is the bias that is the same. The primary focus is who the top places and the bottom places are. If you believe that CoP has changed that, and that the judges have not figured out how to work it, I believe you are kidding yourself.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the fact that there are still good skaters (top group), poor skaters (bottom group) and everything in between. The actual movement we see between short programs and free programs under CoP did. Not. Happen. In 6.0. If you think the judging panels are manipulating the scores to keep certain skaters in the top or bottom, all of them just throwing the criteria out the window, I suspect you have some kind of chip on your shoulder about a poor result you or someone you know received.




Let's just say I have insight. Are you any of the above? Understanding CoP is one thing. Understanding the actual implementation of any judging system can be quite another. No one protests results (except for SLC Olympics), no one wants to go up against the judges. When has an official ever had to justify their marks to a skater? They might, if requested, explain the marks/critique the skater (AKA make excuses), but justify - please. They may have to explain themselves to a referee, but that doesn't change the marks. And I've never seen a judge penalized for questionable results (again, with the exception of SLC Olympics).

Well then "let's just say" I've experienced CoP from both sides. Protests have happened other than SLC, they just haven't been as public because it wasn't the Olympics. Perhaps "justify" was the wrong word to use in terms of explaining marks to a skater, but it's absolutely not uncommon for a skater to ask a judge or referee to give feedback about competition marks so they can improve. Calling that "making excuses" shows you have absolutely no interest in seeing the judges or the judging system as anything other than corrupt and out to deliberately ruin the chances of your favourite skater.

Judges have absolutely been penalized for questionable results and stripped of their credentials outside SLC--again, simply not as public because it wasn't on the Olympic stage. The judging world is large.



I will say this again, there are many judges who are fair and try to do their best without bias. But, anyone who thinks that CoP cannot be manipulated is naive.

Anything can be manipulated if enough effort is put forth. But manipulating CoP and getting away with it is unbelievably difficult, and there really isn't much point. It's easy to pick a judge or a few judges who have an agenda out of a line-up on the protocols. Seeing 9 judges give the same scores might mean *gasp* they actually all saw the same thing on the ice, not that they all got together to decide their scores beforehand in some kind of deal. Contrary to popular belief, every result that people don't agree with is not the consequence of a mass manipulation or conspiracy plan. If people continually don't understand why their skaters are scored a certain way, they need to go to the effort of REALLY learning how the system works before calling for it to be revamped or done away with.

PDilemma
02-21-2012, 05:58 PM
Here's what I hate about this whole argument. It always goes like this:

Someone says: CoP has some very real problems.

The response is then loudly screamed: SO DID 6.0!

And that really isn't a valid argument. Saying that CoP has not solved the issue of biased judging or that it has weaknesses that may be hurting skating is not saying that 6.0 was a perfect system. In fact, I see a lot of posters who are not claiming 6.0 was flawless or even bringing it up at all. Throwing out the "6.0 was flawed, too!" retort is a logical fallacy. Because one system was flawed, it is not then okay that its replacement is flawed.

There are a lot of fans who would like to see improvements in judging. Why can't that discussion take place without the pointless 6.0 argument?