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escaflowne9282
02-20-2012, 08:18 PM
How can you claim the scandal was fabricated? And how do you explain the insignificant punishment the complicit judges received? How do you explain why the whistle blowers are now banned from judging for life, for suggesting that figure skating needs to separate from the ISU? Why has the president of the ISU been a speed skater for - how many years now? Why didn't the ISU clean house after the SLC scandal? Why did they, instead, just create an new system which was never the real problem? If you want to blame someone blame people LeGougne is a good place to start, but what about Didier Gailhaguet and the Russian judges who were involved. What about the US judges who also play the game? They got caught in SLC, but it was not the first or last time deals were made. Officails, money, and power created this, not a bunch of commentators.

Err, the only judge that was ever uncovered in the scandal was MRLG who was suspended and banned from judging the next Winter Olympics. Everything else was pure speculation.
The "whistle-blowers" were thrown out for their involvement in the WSF , which was blatant breach of fiduciary duty to the ISU and the CAS held up the ISU's decision.
IMHO, NBC went way over the top in their coverage of the games and the scandal and seemed to be in love with the idea of the Cold War. There were moments during their commentary in all 4 disciplines where they ignored many rules of 6.0 judging , and started calling the slightest variation in judging a scandal . There were conspiracy theories being thrown around that made no sense at all.
This created the worst kind of impression to the viewing public and in effect killed much of the following skating had.

This was both columns A and B for me.

cruisin
02-20-2012, 08:22 PM
You go Cruisin.... You are 10000 percent correct ! Why, because the ISU no matter how
Many letters are written from honest judges complaining about the corruption manipulation ... And they know the names and players who are corrupt... They sweep
It under the rug. Because they have elevated the corruption right to the big positions
In the ISU. With judges being pressured to vote them onto the committee. Yes being pulled aside and told which way they have to vote. Those are the ticks killing this sport.

I would add to this that there are many honest judges who love this sport. But, they get put in very tough positions. They write letters at their own risk. By not going along with what they are told, they are in jeopardy of not getting higher appointments. They know the sport needs them, so what do they do? How can they help the sport if they complain and can't get into the higher ranks to actually do something about the problems?

bruno6
02-20-2012, 08:25 PM
Wow.. You are right on the money, you really know what your talking about.

RD
02-20-2012, 08:27 PM
You must start from the top down- appoint a president who actually CARES about cleaning up shop, and then have him/her find other folks who wish to do the same, getting rid of the corrupt officials, etc.

The IJS, I think, was simply a band-aid- a fix, but only a temporary one as I think judges are starting to figure out how to manipulate the new system to rank skaters on reputation instead of how they did that night. Frankly, rep judging should have left along with 6.0, but doesn't seem to be the case. Why? Think the problem is internal. The system has changed but the people haven't...

And rep judging isn't just an issue on the world level...at least in the US, I'm seeing it on the national level too.

cruisin
02-20-2012, 08:28 PM
Err, the only judge that was ever uncovered in the scandal was MRLG who was suspended and banned from judging the next Winter Olympics. Everything else was pure speculation.

So, do you think she took it upon herself to hold up the Russian pairs team? That there was no conspiracy re: Russians win Pairs/French win Dance, except in her own mind?


The "whistle-blowers" were thrown out for their involvement in the WSF , which was blatant breach of fiduciary duty to the ISU and the CAS held up the ISU's decision.

I realize that. But it should have gone to the larger membership. The ISU has not been able to govern itself for a long time. There was every reason to believe that separating speed skating and figure skating would benefit both sports. The WSF was not such a bad idea (except for the name).

cruisin
02-20-2012, 08:34 PM
You must start from the top down- appoint a president who actually CARES about cleaning up shop, and then have him/her find other folks who wish to do the same, getting rid of the corrupt officials, etc.

And there should be term limits. Cinquanta has been president of the ISU since 1994, why? (As an aside, that is also when he retired from his job with a chemical company.) I also think, that if figure skating and speed skating are to continue to be governed by the same organization, there should be 2-4 year terms and they should alternate FS/SS.

RD
02-20-2012, 08:38 PM
IMHO, NBC went way over the top in their coverage of the games and the scandal and seemed to be in love with the idea of the Cold War. There were moments during their commentary in all 4 disciplines where they ignored many rules of 6.0 judging , and started calling the slightest variation in judging a scandal . There were conspiracy theories being thrown around that made no sense at all.
This created the worst kind of impression to the viewing public and in effect killed much of the following skating had.

In reality, I think the reason for the decline is very complicated. No doubt, the scandal played a big part and may even have been the catalyst for the decline- but as with most dramatic events/changes, there is typically not just ONE reason for it. Other reasons might be oversaturation, media fragmentation (much more channels), NJS (the appearance of skating HAS changed because of it, for better or worse), the lack of a star in WOMEN'S skating, negative media coverage, the rise of the internet, etc. I personally think TPTB have been quite slow to embrace new media and that's where most people get their news nowadays. Only this season did the ISU finally start posting stuff on Youtube, sharing pics on Facebook, etc. And USFS has, for the first time this season, gotten much more involved with its Twitter account in covering events it hosts. TV & newspaper promotions of events are no longer enough. Somehow I get the feeling many within the organization are stuck 10, 20, possibly even 30 years in the past and that's why we're not making any progress...

winterchik
02-20-2012, 08:45 PM
while judges represent a FLAG there will be Bias.. Corruption well that is a different animal

bruno6
02-20-2012, 08:55 PM
Unfortunately, you will see this problem will never go away. ISU needs to clean house.
No coaches on the tek panel at all. Maybe if there is no more judge representation at
The event it would help. So grand prix events would be judged by judges who have no skaters there. And tek panel also . I'm sure there are enough judges to Mix it up.

cruisin
02-20-2012, 09:07 PM
In reality, I think the reason for the decline is very complicated. No doubt, the scandal played a big part and may even have been the catalyst for the decline- but as with most dramatic events/changes, there is typically not just ONE reason for it. Other reasons might be oversaturation, media fragmentation (much more channels), NJS (the appearance of skating HAS changed because of it, for better or worse), the lack of a star in WOMEN'S skating, negative media coverage, the rise of the internet, etc. I personally think TPTB have been quite slow to embrace new media and that's where most people get their news nowadays. Only this season did the ISU finally start posting stuff on Youtube, sharing pics on Facebook, etc. And USFS has, for the first time this season, gotten much more involved with its Twitter account in covering events it hosts. TV & newspaper promotions of events are no longer enough. Somehow I get the feeling many within the organization are stuck 10, 20, possibly even 30 years in the past and that's why we're not making any progress...

You make some excellent points. The SLC corruption was not the only reason for skating's decline. One thing that has been mentioned to me, repeatedly, by casual fans - once you've watched the program once, why would you want to see it 10 more times. They don't see the subtle differences and improvements. Possibly, too much exposure to too many events, watered viewership down.


while judges represent a FLAG there will be Bias.. Corruption well that is a different animal

I don't see much of a separation there. Bias and corruption go hand in hand. As to the flag/bias issue, I find it amusing that the ISU tried to make the judges seem less nationalistic by calling them ISU judge #? rather than huge from XYZ country. That is laughable.


Unfortunately, you will see this problem will never go away. ISU needs to clean house.
No coaches on the tek panel at all. Maybe if there is no more judge representation at
The event it would help. So grand prix events would be judged by judges who have no skaters there. And tek panel also . I'm sure there are enough judges to Mix it up.

That would be very hard to do. We do want the most knowledgeable judges at events. We would not have a panel, if we limited them to countries without entries. Unless we had panels of 4 or 5, and that would not be good.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 09:22 PM
I always find myself looking at the judges panel first, at an event. Before I look at anything else.
It's so bad.. But I then decide if my favorite teams have a fighting chance... I know
That's bad but I guess I'm tainted.

escaflowne9282
02-20-2012, 09:23 PM
So, do you think she took it upon herself to hold up the Russian pairs team? That there was no conspiracy re: Russians win Pairs/French win Dance, except in her own mind?

I am not saying that there was no conspiracy, but she did recant her initial comments. She also stated several times that she voted how she wanted to despite any outside pressure. Of course, she may have said something different at the time. The point is, you can not "clean house" based solely on the word of one person who doesn't stand by it five minutes later. Nobody has ever given any type of first hand corroboration to anything this woman has said ,nor offered anything beyond hearsay and speculation .

luna_skater
02-20-2012, 09:36 PM
We all understood that 6.0 was perfect. The system now, has no perfect. So, the scores don't really mean anything to us. What does a personal best score really mean? There is no limit. Different panels will give higher or lower numbers for the same program, not always dependent on the program being skated better or worse. People also don't like that there is only one mark. They like to know where each judge put the skater/team. They like to know if a team got all 1sts, all 2nds, a combination. I also think that some things, like jumps, are easy to understand when they are given a value. But others, like certain spins, and footwork, it's harder to understand why they got the value they did and what the plus/minus means.

Technically, there is a theoretical maximum possible score that can be achieved. I blame commentators for not making that more clear, and for not using other skaters' scores as benchmarks to explain to the public what the numbers mean. For instance, they can let the viewer know that XX.00 is an outstanding score for a short program, or that Patrick's high score of 300+ is the highest ever, so viewers have a point of comparison. The numbers don't have to be meaningless.

There are plenty of sports where the viewers have no idea where the numbers come from. I watch gymnastics and diving on occasion, and don't often find the commentators going into detail about exactly how each score was calculated. But I can get the drift of what a good score is and what a bad score is, and it doesn't diminish my enjoyment.

With 6.0, armchair judges used to throw out scores they thought skaters deserved, could come across as though they knew what they were talking about because the criteria wasn't so specific. They could come close to the actual score because there were only so many numbers to go around, and you could figure out patterns (i.e., you knew what a typical mark was for a skater in the last group, when X program was skated of a certain calibre). Now people can't do that, so they claim the system is too confusing.

cruisin
02-20-2012, 09:54 PM
^^ I don't think that is what confuses them. I think it is the lack of individual marks that does. Having one number means we have no idea who put who in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. We can look at protocols, if we know to look at them. But even the, we don't know who the judges are. There is no accountability, no sense of agreement/disagreement among the judges.

Nomad
02-20-2012, 10:21 PM
Technically, there is a theoretical maximum possible score that can be achieved. I blame commentators for not making that more clear, and for not using other skaters' scores as benchmarks to explain to the public what the numbers mean. For instance, they can let the viewer know that XX.00 is an outstanding score for a short program, or that Patrick's high score of 300+ is the highest ever, so viewers have a point of comparison. The numbers don't have to be meaningless. .....

This. I also find it helpful when, in the FS, they show the little box with "Score to beat" after every skater. Even if the casual fan doesn't know that no way is Sonya Salchow going to get 142.37 for her horrendous LP to the soundtrack of Pippi Longstocking, at least they know what she needs to take the lead.