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View Full Version : 2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?



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bruno6
02-20-2012, 04:43 PM
Yes ... I will do just that. Thanks!!!

JanetB
02-20-2012, 05:27 PM
re: the original question

You could fix figure skating tomorrow by going back to 6.0. It's that simple.

OR you can keep tweaking and keep tweaking CoP year after year after year and then lose what's left of the casual fans and only have people who were raised under the CoP system still following figure skating. By that time when the CoP becomes understandable, everyone will be wearing solid black onesies and doing the exact same program to Tango de Roxanne.

OR you could come up with something closer to 6.0 that fans can understand. But it has to be an ultimate score that points are deducted from. Not racking up points. No one can understand what these huge numbers mean. I've listened to people like Scott Hamilton wait for scores not having any idea what a skater will get. That's insane. How can a normal personal then get anything from what looks like a random number? If the top score in all disciplines was something like 100 and then points were deducted for falls, under rotations, finishing after the music, etc., then that would be easier to understand for everyone. Any normal American watching a program where someone did most of their jumps and had great presentation skills and seeing that the person got a score of 85, would say 'okay he fell and he got a what amounts to a B grade. That makes sense.' or 'Oh she was pretty perfect and got a 95, which is like an A. That makes sense.' It's really not that hard to make everyone happy.

At Canadian nationals in Moncton I spends 10 minutes talking to some gentlemen who had never watched figure skating before. By the end of the ten minutes they had a basic understanding of the system. They knew that each element got the skater a certain number of points and how well they did it added or subtracted more points and that the component scores covered everything other than jumps, spins and step sequences. These gentlemen where very eager to learn because they where truly amazed at what the skaters could do. The program published by Skate Canada had a chart that showed points range for good, very good and excellent programs so these two men could also understand how well the skaters were doing. So if two total newbieís can understand it in ten minutes than I think you do a disservice to the average fan.


Skating rules are not that complicated for even a casual fan to learn especially compared to most other sports whose fans care enough to take the time to learn them.

Maybe the ISU needs to publish 'COP for Dummies'; it could be on their youtube channel so we can see visual examples. Do one for each discipline.

Personally I think there are two reasons for the resistance to COP

People are Math phobic
They didnít really understand the 6.0 system to begin with

luna_skater
02-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Personally I think there are two reasons for the resistance to COP

People are Math phobic
They didnít really understand the 6.0 system to begin with


3. People find bitching about corruption and wuzrobbing to be more fun than learning the actual rules and criteria.

I don't dispute that there are still officials with hidden agendas. There always will be; it's the nature of the sport, and it's the nature of EVERY sport. But I find it laughable how many people honestly believe that a few individuals have the ability to significantly manipulate the results. There are so many moving parts to CoP, you'd need to be a master of coercion and have a PhD in stats to figure out how to put your skater first. Personally, I see more instances of incompetence than corruption, since officials aren't constantly tested and asked to re-certify. That's a bigger issue at the National level, since I know that ISU tech panels have to take an exam every three (?) years, but I'd love to see more regular re-examination taking place on an internal scale. I don't think the ISU has a responsibility to make sure their judges are accountable to fans when there are great numbers of them who don't actually know the rules, nor seem to care to make an attempt to.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 06:16 PM
Yes, Luna skater you are right. And I have seen it getting better. There is and always
Will be the corrupt judges, federation heads and coaches that will still cling to the hope
That they will manipulate the judges and tek panel with bribes, pressure etc. But I hear
It's getting better. It would be impossible for the ISU to purge themselves from these
Ticks embedded into the system but some in the ISU are trying Peter Krick is one .

Sylvia
02-20-2012, 06:20 PM
But I can say that one of my family Members is an international judge. And I can say, I have gone to many events with them
And I have heard over the last 15 years all about the inside track of corruption that goes On there. I have listerned to the story's almost every time they have come back from A event they were judging. So maybe I'm not that good with the English language... But what I do speak about is from first hand info.
Has your family member who is the international judge tried to do something constructive in the past 15 years about the "inside track of corruption" by working from inside the ISU?

bruno6
02-20-2012, 06:24 PM
Yes, they do not cave to the pressure. And believe me they have been over the years.
With money bribes pressure from their own federation sometimes... On and on.
I really can't say to much, but that is why they are so frustrated . They love the sport.
Being a judge comes with a lot of pressure.

Sylvia
02-20-2012, 06:32 PM
Well that's encouraging to hear! :) I'd really like to believe there are many more skating judges and officials like your family member than "bad apples" with agendas, and that the ISU's ethics rules and policies are enforced by officials who care more deeply about the sport than their federation's and/or their own private gain.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 06:37 PM
Coaches and federation heads, know exactly what judges they can approach to let's
Say talk to.... And who they can't because they know.. They will get reported to the ISU
It's all a big game. So again some judges are by the book, and some are by the bookies!!

winterchik
02-20-2012, 06:50 PM
The media and NBC thrash team fabricated judging scandal was a huge blow to skating in every rsepect. I hope the likes of Sandra Bezic, Scott Hamilton, Phil Hersh, Christine Brennan, and the schizo Marie Reine LeGougne are all happy now. The North American skating hype distributers did nothing but create a false impression of the worst kind to the casual North American skating fan, and make the sport almost extinct in many ways (TV coverage, interest, tours/pro competitions/TV sponsored cheesfests and exhibitions) in this part of the World, essentialy killing their own product that they make a living and lifestyle off of as well.excellent post

cruisin
02-20-2012, 07:44 PM
The media and NBC thrash team fabricated judging scandal was a huge blow to skating in every rsepect. I hope the likes of Sandra Bezic, Scott Hamilton, Phil Hersh, Christine Brennan, and the schizo Marie Reine LeGougne are all happy now. The North American skating hype distributers did nothing but create a false impression of the worst kind to the casual North American skating fan, and make the sport almost extinct in many ways (TV coverage, interest, tours/pro competitions/TV sponsored cheesfests and exhibitions) in this part of the World, essentialy killing their own product that they make a living and lifestyle off of as well.

How can you claim the scandal was fabricated? And how do you explain the insignificant punishment the complicit judges received? How do you explain why the whistle blowers are now banned from judging for life, for suggesting that figure skating needs to separate from the ISU? Why has the president of the ISU been a speed skater for - how many years now? Why didn't the ISU clean house after the SLC scandal? Why did they, instead, just create an new system which was never the real problem? If you want to blame someone blame people LeGougne is a good place to start, but what about Didier Gailhaguet and the Russian judges who were involved. What about the US judges who also play the game? They got caught in SLC, but it was not the first or last time deals were made. Officails, money, and power created this, not a bunch of commentators.

taf2002
02-20-2012, 07:56 PM
I know Oksana Baiul's win was controversial. I thought the explanation that she managed to win gold because she tacked on an extra double-axel at the very end was very stupid.

Then why did you say: " (The best heroines are probably someone like Oksana Baiul or Katerina Gordeeva. They are seen to have won the Gold legitimately and some other thing in their life makes them tragic heroines as well.)

Oksana was not seen to have won legitimately by much of the skating world at the time. The consensis was that she presented the best but her technical flaws should have taken her out of it. Also, I have never heard that her two-footed 2A at the end was the reason for her win.

BTW Katia was not a "tragic heroine" for either of her gold medals. Sergei died after they turned pro.

I have been watching skating since 1960. I can't remember a time when I thought all the wins were legitimate. I didn't need you-tube or a message board to make me aware of deal-making & I am not a skating insider in any way.

Nomad
02-20-2012, 07:56 PM
At Canadian nationals in Moncton I spends 10 minutes talking to some gentlemen who had never watched figure skating before. By the end of the ten minutes they had a basic understanding of the system. They knew that each element got the skater a certain number of points and how well they did it added or subtracted more points and that the component scores covered everything other than jumps, spins and step sequences. These gentlemen where very eager to learn because they where truly amazed at what the skaters could do. The program published by Skate Canada had a chart that showed points range for good, very good and excellent programs so these two men could also understand how well the skaters were doing. So if two total newbieís can understand it in ten minutes than I think you do a disservice to the average fan.



Personally I think there are two reasons for the resistance to COP

People are Math phobic
They didnít really understand the 6.0 system to begin with


I had a similar experience with my nieces, who were 11 and 13 when we watched the Vancouver games. They knew zero about 6.0 and I did not have to do a lot of explaining for them to get IJS. It's really not as hard as Scott and Sandra keep telling the general public it is.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 08:11 PM
You go Cruisin.... You are 10000 percent correct ! Why, because the ISU no matter how
Many letters are written from honest judges complaining about the corruption manipulation ... And they know the names and players who are corrupt... They sweep
It under the rug. Because they have elevated the corruption right to the big positions
In the ISU. With judges being pressured to vote them onto the committee. Yes being pulled aside and told which way they have to vote. Those are the ticks killing this sport.

cruisin
02-20-2012, 08:15 PM
I don't think the math or the system of CoP is all that difficult. I think the problem is that people cannot relate to what the numbers mean. Someone else explained it, well, up thread. We all understood that 6.0 was perfect. The system now, has no perfect. So, the scores don't really mean anything to us. What does a personal best score really mean? There is no limit. Different panels will give higher or lower numbers for the same program, not always dependent on the program being skated better or worse. People also don't like that there is only one mark. They like to know where each judge put the skater/team. They like to know if a team got all 1sts, all 2nds, a combination. I also think that some things, like jumps, are easy to understand when they are given a value. But others, like certain spins, and footwork, it's harder to understand why they got the value they did and what the plus/minus means.

RD
02-20-2012, 08:18 PM
Somehow I don't even think the ISU is unique in this regard. I think most international sporting bodies deal with corruption on some level...it's only a serious issue if it begins affecting the product- i.e. pre-determining results or tweaking rules to favor certain nations.