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View Full Version : 2002 Judging Scandal: Has The Medicine Done More Damage Than The Original Disease?



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bruno6
02-20-2012, 01:41 AM
I remrber going into a certain ice arena, I won't say where but it was in the summer
And seeing a certain high ranking judge there. They were sitting in giving advice to a certain coach and the coaches team. The judge was not part of the skaters federation
And had no connection what so ever with the skaters apart from being a friend
Of the coach... And I thought wow is this allowed. This judge was helping with the
Levels as the skater was doing the program. I really watched amazed.

Aussie Willy
02-20-2012, 01:58 AM
It happens all the time with skaters and coaches asking judges to look at what skaters are doing. I am not sure why people are surprised by it. I always get asked for feedback from skaters and coaches after competitions and during the season. Particularly leading up to Nationals we had pre-event exhibition skate and plenty of people asked me for feedback. But was there anything in it? Not at all. They just want feedback to help the skater improve.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 02:06 AM
Ok thank you ... I just thought it odd. Especially since this judge was not from the United
States, and flew over from Europe , thanks for your reply.

luna_skater
02-20-2012, 03:00 AM
Ok thank you ... I just thought it odd. Especially since this judge was not from the United
States, and flew over from Europe , thanks for your reply.

It may be in the skater's best interests to get feedback from a judge that isn't from their home country/city/etc., and won't be judging them, so the risk of conflict is minimized for both parties.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 03:08 AM
No , this judge did judge them at the grand prix that season. Maybe I'm just not explaining it correctly lol

magnolia
02-20-2012, 03:11 AM
Unless CoP judges are seen to be employing the provided scheme and judging fairly and objectively without bias, figure skating will never overcome the Salt Lake Scandal.

As the AP article points out:


Judging shenanigans have always been skating’s dirty little secret. But it was one thing to look at scores and try to guess what countries were conniving and which judges were swapping marks, quite another to have it confirmed as it was in Salt Lake.

The adoption of CoP has allowed anyone who's remotely interested in figure skating to make an educated guess as to exactly how the scores were manipulated (through weird tech calls, weird GOEs, weird PCS scores, etc.).

And in this age of interactive media, these educated guesses can be shown to and assessed by even the general public through showing relevant clips on places like YouTube. On YouTube, anyone can leave a comment giving their opinion as to whether or not they individually think the tech call, GOE, PCS was legit or weird. So if some kind of major mistake or inflation/deflation of score took place, it gets recognized. So while cheating of scores can still take place under CoP just as it did under 6.0, in this age of interactive media, public opinion will confirm it as such which was not the case during 6.0.

It seems cruel to point out specific performances, but if you look at YouTube performances of e.g., Patrick Chan where he won despite multiple falls and sloppy skating, the comments of the readers reflect that 'public opinion' doubts the legitimacy of that win. Or if you look at LP clip of Ashley Wagner's 4CC and scroll down to look at the comments... well, likewise. Or recall back to the vicious comments left on Yuna's clips.

So this means that if a skater wins and wins with what is deemed by 'public opinion' to be an inflated score, their marketability has been damaged long before they've won the Olympic gold medal (if they do).

To give an example, let's say two years from now, Caroline Kostner somehow wins Sochi and she already has a history of winning with the easier triples. By the time she wins Sochi, there will already have been so many YouTube clips with hundreds and thousands of comments that she's the judges' favorite. Post-Sochi, it would then not be easy to market her as the new 'heroine' of figure skating in Europe, as her victory at Sochi would more likely symbolize the decadence of figure skating world.

I sometimes read the opinion that popularity of figure skating in North America needs an Olympic gold champion to revive, and that may be or may not be.

If you look at Michelle Kwan it isn't necessarily so, I think. Wasn't it more that she had the 'underdog' image that made her a star? She was the first Asian-American to break into Figure Skating, and despite her dominance at Worlds, she never managed to win an Olympic gold medal. Also, if you look at Mao, of course she's a beautiful skater but even if she were the same skater, if she had the image that she was the judge's favorite, I'm sure she would not get the support that she gets. So if you look at the popularity of Michelle Kwan and Mao Asada, it's the image that these women remain beautiful and valiant in the face of adversity that make them stars. (Yuna had that image early in her career, didn't she? I loved her then. And then her team went about losing it by being obviously political which was so annoying.)

But anyway, I guess Olympic gold can't hurt to achieve stardom. But then, it has to be won in a certain way, where public opinion can say that 'yes, that was a true win, not a manipulated win'. Otherwise, the skater cannot be convincingly marketed as a hero/heroine and therefore their win will not lead to the revival of popularity of figure skating in North America.

(The best heroines are probably someone like Oksana Baiul or Katerina Gordeeva. They are seen to have won the Gold legitimately and some other thing in their life makes them tragic heroines as well.)

Proustable
02-20-2012, 03:23 AM
Tiffany Chin and Kristi Yamaguchi might disagree with at least one of your assertions.

magnolia
02-20-2012, 03:43 AM
Tiffany Chin and Kristi Yamaguchi might disagree with at least one of your assertions.

Yes, of course, they are Asian-Americans. I kind of forgot about them when I was writing. Tiffany Chin, I would argue, never managed to become the darling of United States (i.e., never broke into mainstream consciousness of United States). Kristi Yamaguchi... well, I think she only broke into mainstream US as a 'star' post-Olympic.

Neither achieved the kind of recognition that would lead to increasing figure skating popularity in United States.

winterchik
02-20-2012, 03:52 AM
Johndockley what I can't take seriously about you,
Is that you
actually believe that there is no bias in the tek
Panel!! Also my fat fingers sometime enables me to type properly
On my small iPhone. I should really get a computer.
2. Isu pays their judges about 300.00 per event.
3. Alla, I won't even attempt to spell her last name, is now head of the
Isu tek committee . So she decides who goes where.

Really you must learn !!!!!!! before coming up with this empty statements

Marco
02-20-2012, 04:20 AM
I hate that in women's skating we see most of the difficult jump elements in the sp and then see them back off or just do a 2a/3t combo in the free skate...seems anticlimactic to finish the competition with less than what they are capable of. I liked it better when the sp was like walking on egg shells to be squeaky clean so you could place well and then go for broke in the free. Now, it's the opposite. Go for broke in the short to score big and just try to stand up in the free to keep your place.

I see no problem with this.

The short program is supposed to be the technical program and the long program is supposed to be the artistic program. The skaters typically have no choice BUT to focus on the technical elements during the short program due to time constraints. They have more time and opportunity to show off their skills, choreography and artistry in the long program. Plus, it really is physically demanding enough already that they have to do 4 / 5 more jumping passes in the long program for another 110 seconds.

If I were in control, I would make PCS count even less in the short and even more in the long. This makes hitting the technical elements in the short program even more important and showing skills / expressions in the long program even more important.

Made4Dancin
02-20-2012, 04:35 AM
re: the original question

You could fix figure skating tomorrow by going back to 6.0. It's that simple.

OR you can keep tweaking and keep tweaking CoP year after year after year and then lose what's left of the casual fans and only have people who were raised under the CoP system still following figure skating. By that time when the CoP becomes understandable, everyone will be wearing solid black onesies and doing the exact same program to Tango de Roxanne.

OR you could come up with something closer to 6.0 that fans can understand. But it has to be an ultimate score that points are deducted from. Not racking up points. No one can understand what these huge numbers mean. I've listened to people like Scott Hamilton wait for scores not having any idea what a skater will get. That's insane. How can a normal personal then get anything from what looks like a random number? If the top score in all disciplines was something like 100 and then points were deducted for falls, under rotations, finishing after the music, etc., then that would be easier to understand for everyone. Any normal American watching a program where someone did most of their jumps and had great presentation skills and seeing that the person got a score of 85, would say 'okay he fell and he got a what amounts to a B grade. That makes sense.' or 'Oh she was pretty perfect and got a 95, which is like an A. That makes sense.' It's really not that hard to make everyone happy.

taf2002
02-20-2012, 04:37 AM
But anyway, I guess Olympic gold can't hurt to achieve stardom. But then, it has to be won in a certain way, where public opinion can say that 'yes, that was a true win, not a manipulated win'. Otherwise, the skater cannot be convincingly marketed as a hero/heroine and therefore their win will not lead to the revival of popularity of figure skating in North America.

(The best heroines are probably someone like Oksana Baiul or Katerina Gordeeva. They are seen to have won the Gold legitimately and some other thing in their life makes them tragic heroines as well.)

There is so much in your post that is convoluted but I want to answer the bolded items above....there have been very few Oly wins that have a public opinion consensus, where just about everyone says yes that was a true win. And you certainly can't use Oksana Baiul as an example. Her win has been a controversy for years, so was Katya's 2nd win.

bruno6
02-20-2012, 04:41 AM
Winterchik you don't know who I am... Empty statements?? Really for all you know I could be one of those corrupt Judges... So I'm not posting just to talk about bullshit.
Empty statements ... Who are you to say that. Go back to being a fan just watch the show.

bek
02-20-2012, 04:50 AM
I think CoP in its current state makes perfect sense for the short program, but the free programs as a whole look dreadful. There are obvious exceptions (Abbott, Takahashi) but I really think they should score the free skate differently. Do away with levels and give ONE score for Jumps, Spins, Footwork, and MITF each.

I hate that in women's skating we see most of the difficult jump elements in the sp and then see them back off or just do a 2a/3t combo in the free skate...seems anticlimactic to finish the competition with less than what they are capable of. I liked it better when the sp was like walking on egg shells to be squeaky clean so you could place well and then go for broke in the free. Now, it's the opposite. Go for broke in the short to score big and just try to stand up in the free to keep your place.

I don't know I like that 3/3s are encouraged in the short program. I just think they should be encouraged more in the long too. The way combinations are scored in the long is just RIDICULOUS to me.:rolleyes:

lakewood
02-20-2012, 04:57 AM
You could fix figure skating tomorrow by going back to 6.0. It's that simple.



The majority of people who voted in this poll don't agree with you.