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gkelly
02-06-2012, 07:49 PM
The difference is at the time when Tara just started to burst onto the scene, there're so so so many other elite singles Ladies in the US.

That's not really true. In 1995, when Lipinski was being hyped in juniors, there were basically three senior ladies in the US who could really be considered world class. The junior field probably showed more depth than the seniors that year.

fenway2
02-06-2012, 07:55 PM
That's not really true. In 1995, when Lipinski was being hyped in juniors, there were basically three senior ladies in the US who could really be considered world class. The junior field probably showed more depth than the seniors that year. Kwan, Bobek and ?
I wouldn't say Kwiatkowski was world class in 1995 if that's the third person you were thinking of. At the point in her career she'd been to worlds once and failed to make it out of the qualifying round.

Yukari Lepisto
02-06-2012, 07:58 PM
That's not really true. In 1995, when Lipinski was being hyped in juniors, there were basically three senior ladies in the US who could really be considered world class. The junior field probably showed more depth than the seniors that year.

yeah, there were still world class skaters in the senior level then. But who do we have now? If we have to name one, maybe that's Alissa, but who else? And the fact that US has only 2 spots for ladies single for 4 years really speaks volume about it.

gkelly
02-06-2012, 08:19 PM
Kwan, Bobek and ?
I wouldn't say Kwiatkowski was world class in 1995 if that's the third person you were thinking of. At the point in her career she'd been to worlds once and failed to make it out of the qualifying round.

Yes, I meant Kwiatkowski. Not as a likely world medalist, but as having potential to get past the Worlds qualifying round. (E.g., see 1994 Trophee de France results (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Troph%C3%A9e_de_France))


yeah, there were still world class skaters in the senior level then. But who do we have now? If we have to name one, maybe that's Alissa, but who else? And the fact that US has only 2 spots for ladies single for 4 years really speaks volume about it.

More than we had in 1995. The top 3 senior ladies in 1995 had an 8th place and two DNQs among them in their previous trips to Worlds and an occasional medal from junior or fall comp/pro-am/Goodwill Games events (the Grand Prix didn't exist yet).

Yes, by 1995 Worlds two of those ladies ended up in medal contention, and one of them ended up staying there for a whole decade. But as of 1995 Nationals, none of that had happened yet. There wasn't anyone who was yet a proven quantity at the senior level.

toddlj
02-06-2012, 08:20 PM
yeah, there were still world class skaters in the senior level then. But who do we have now? If we have to name one, maybe that's Alissa, but who else? And the fact that US has only 2 spots for ladies single for 4 years really speaks volume about it.

I guess it depends on how you define "world class." Czisny, Nagasu and Wagner all medaled on the GP this season.

mikemba
02-06-2012, 08:26 PM
The first year I remember Tara at Nationals it was 1995 in Providence, and she was a new Junior. Her publicist was working full time, and you would have thought from the newspapers and everything else that she was going to wipe the rink with the other juniors. Instead she totally bombed and was beaten by Sydne Vogel of Alaska.

Totally bombed? I was there as well, and if I recall correctly she landed her first triple flip ever at that competition, in addition to about 5 other triples. Again, I guess definitions of "bombing" differ, becasue I saw that as a highly successful compeition for her. She and Sydne had by far the best technical content that night, and having a 12-year-old or so Lipinski beat everyone but Sydne (who IIRC correctly was the only junior at that event with a lutz) is an accomplishment, not a failure.


Tara did not add the 3R3R to her program until the 1996-1997 season, and she was already competing at the senior level.

Yes, I agree. My point was that Tara was someone who had heavy hype beginning as a junior, and who not only thrived under hype, but also faced numerous highly stressful situations throughout her career (competing against Michelle, constantly upgrading her difficulty, sometimes needing a flawless routine to win and then delivering it), and seemed incredibly successful at handling each pressure.

vesperholly
02-06-2012, 10:08 PM
Totally bombed? ... Again, I guess definitions of "bombing" differ, becasue I saw that as a highly successful compeition for her.

When your publicist (:eek:) is setting up expectations far beyond what a junior lady is capable of, yes, a silver medal could be considered a bomb.

MacMadame
02-06-2012, 10:14 PM
When your publicist (:eek:) is setting up expectations far beyond what a junior lady is capable of, yes, a silver medal could be considered a bomb.

No, not really. She was edged out by Vogel after giving a very nice skate that would totally have won in other years. That's not a bomb by any definition.

I think the main difference between then and now though isn't anything about the US skating scene or the skating of these two. It's the place of the internet.

For example, only people in the arena saw Tara and Sydne's skates. They weren't live streamed to the Internet. That made debate and hype somewhat limited.

fenway2
02-06-2012, 10:19 PM
When your publicist (:eek:) is setting up expectations far beyond what a junior lady is capable of, yes, a silver medal could be considered a bomb. Not even close. Tara didn't bomb.

By your definition, Midori and Michelle bombed in 92 and 98, respectively.

DORISPULASKI
02-06-2012, 10:52 PM
The publicist had articles in all the Providence papers, and fluff pieces on the nightly news. For a 12 year old girl just new to juniors. It was so ginormous that it sets my teeth on edge just thinking about it.

But in those days there was no internet for everyone to see the hype--so the effect nationally was not the same.

When Tara skated, we were like, "This is the girl who was going to win seniors next year (which is what the publicity had implied)??" She was slow with tiny little jumps. The publicity led you to believe she was going to crush her junior opponents by miles. Instead she was beaten. In both the short and the long. By an Alaskan girl. (And that silver was a bit of a gift. I thought Britney McConn who was 3rd was better at the time. If I saw the performances today, I can't say, but that's what I thought then) To compare, Gracie not only won, she won by 23 points, and she won both the short and the long.

So Tara did not deliver on the hype (bombed) and Gracie did deliver. At Worlds, Tara was 4th, which was good for her age, but nowhere near what was hyped.

fenway2
02-06-2012, 10:55 PM
Then I guess Midori and Michelle bombed too...since the pre-Olympic articles claimed they would crush the competition. Instead they bombed.

DORISPULASKI
02-06-2012, 11:08 PM
Michelle in 1998 did not bomb, because she delivered her program well. Her skating lived up to the hype. Tara either was somewhat better or not People still argue about it.

Yeah, Midori bombed. The pressure of the hype was too much for her.

fenway2
02-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Michelle in 1998 did not bomb, because she delivered her program well. Her skating lived up to the hype. Tara either was somewhat better or not People still argue about it.

Yeah, Midori bombed. The pressure of the hype was too much for her.
Tara delivered her program well in 95. She was just out skated - like Michelle in 1998.

I wouldn't say Midori bombed. Didn't live up to expectation but no, she didn't bomb.

DORISPULASKI
02-06-2012, 11:11 PM
No, she didn't-but there is no video to say one way or the other.

Your memory is one way of the event, mine the other way. I would have had McConn second.

bek
02-06-2012, 11:16 PM
Gracie didn't exactly have a lot of competition; she won with a fall. She was technically far ahead of the field. Whereas Tara wasn't. Let's see how Gracie handles REAL competition in a few weeks. Tara eventually did live up to it. Its a marathon not a sprint.