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View Full Version : Virtue - Moir #14 V&M - The Future's so Bright, I Gotta wear Shades



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bbkenn
02-12-2012, 01:51 AM
Changing choreo mid-season is tough; kudos to them for skating so well!

It must be frustrating for them, with last season mostly lost due to surgery and rehab, and now this season needing to make so many adjustments to the choreo, which affects their preparation yet again.

I hope they just let any negativity float past them, stay true to their priorities and goals (however they define them) and enjoy their time on the ice. I'm sure enjoying watching, and I'm really glad they didn't hang up their skates after the Olys (for my own selfish reasons as an ice dance lover ;)).

I wish they hadn't adjusted the SD, it was great the way it was and they just made a mistake at the GPF; I feel this has undermined their confidence in themselves, so I hope they get their joy back. I expect they will with the FD which they clearly love. As for your last point, I too am glad they didn't hang up their skates after the Olys.

I do think they haven't had a chance to really enjoy being Olympic Champions, or that they are treated as Olympic Champions as in previous years, or maybe that's just me. I just can't see D&W being so close to them and now apparently according to the judges, surpassing them. I just don't understand it or maybe my preference for V&M prevents me from seeing it. I don't know.

flowerpower
02-12-2012, 02:13 AM
I wish they hadn't adjusted the SD, it was great the way it was and they just made a mistake at the GPF; I feel this has undermined their confidence in themselves, so I hope they get their joy back. I expect they will with the FD which they clearly love. As for your last point, I too am glad they didn't hang up their skates after the Olys...I do think they haven't had a chance to really enjoy being Olympic Champions, or that they are treated as Olympic Champions as in previous years, or maybe that's just me.

I agree; I wish they had left the SD alone too. (I didn't love the choreo; I thought it could be better, but I don't particularly like the changes, and as you say it affects confidence when the choreo is constantly being changed.)

The second surgery put things on hold for them for awhile, and now they are pressuring themselves too much - no surprise, when Tracy Wilson is saying "change the choreo" (not to mention a zillion other opinions being thrown at them, from credible sources and not-so-credible sources).

I really admire their persistence. Like I said in my edit above, I hope they will skate freely and with joy, and just let the chips fall where they may.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
02-12-2012, 02:13 AM
bbkenn, I agree with your assessment of the situation.

Personally, I never felt that the SD needed to be changed in the first place. It's reminding me of all the criticism T&D received for their original version of Face the Music and Dance after 1994 Europeans. They ripped apart a dance that was IIRC heavy in footwork and ended up with a weaker T&D's greatest moves type of FD. We saw what the end result of that was.

At times the criticism from the judges is valid and sometimes it is not. It has to be very hard on the skaters to try and isolate what really needs to be worked on and what might be nothing more than head games.

While I don't think any team should get brownie points just for being the reigning World or Olympic champions we have seen that happen (or appear to) in the past. For what it's worth, V&M don't or shouldn't need to depend on getting favored because they are the reigning Olympic champs. ITA that D&W (IMHO) have not passed V&M at all. I am more of a V&M fan than a D&W fan but I feel that I can be objective and I have watched both teams (both this season and last) over and again.

I just don't see where V&M have supposedly fallen behind.

ddtpdx
02-12-2012, 02:16 AM
I wish they hadn't adjusted the SD, it was great the way it was and they just made a mistake at the GPF; I feel this has undermined their confidence in themselves, so I hope they get their joy back. I expect they will with the FD which they clearly love. As for your last point, I too am glad they didn't hang up their skates after the Olys.

I do think they haven't had a chance to really enjoy being Olympic Champions, or that they are treated as Olympic Champions as in previous years, or maybe that's just me. I just can't see D&W being so close to them and now apparently according to the judges, surpassing them. I just don't understand it or maybe my preference for V&M prevents me from seeing it. I don't know.

I agree with your thoughts about the SD.

I don't see D/W as V/M's equal either. IMHO, what we are seeing is a combination of:

-a scoring system (and its interpretation) that does not give as much value to V/M's strengths while giving more to D/W's strengths;
-the ISU's desire (probably due to external and internal pressure) to make this appear as much a sport as possible to the general public and thus ignoring the hidden difficulties (when judging) that are only apparent to the trained eye.

I could come up with other theories but perhaps I'll save that for another post :)

Macassar88
02-12-2012, 02:20 AM
Ugh I really don't like the layout of the SD. I really like the transition into the temptation part, but I don't like how frantic the end seems especially with the shitty music cuts at the end. Their old SD wasn't perfect, but it was still better. I think that if they had kept the old SD and changed the lift, they would have been better off.

ballettmaus
02-12-2012, 02:23 AM
this is the problem, it seems that they never get penalized for it. it's almost as if the judges are saying that since they twizzle really fast, we will overlook the unison issue.

I have no idea about the exact rules in ice dancing but I vaguely recall that in pairs skating in a spin the entrance into the spin, the change of foot/position and the exit must be synchronized and if the unison is a little off in between it doesn't really get taken into account. (unless, of course, it's during the entire spin). So maybe for twizzles in ice dancing there are similar rules?
Not saying that I would support those rules; I've been bothered by it in pairs skating many times.

flowerpower
02-12-2012, 02:36 AM
I think that if they had kept the old SD and changed the lift, they would have been better off.

That would have been my preference, too (now that I see what they've been given).

Water under the bridge, though. They'll dig in and persist, and my hat is off to them once again for sheer gutsiness.

sequins
02-12-2012, 02:38 AM
I agree the panic set in after the GPF was for no reason and I too wish they'd kept the original but they didn't and after the 'Canadians' disaster I have to give them props. They pulled it together and it was darn good tonight, not like the original but this is what we're getting, this is what they're doing, I support them in that but I hope they've learned a lesson from it as well. The drastic change was not necessary but I blame the judges too and I do not understand why it is so close either and with D/W pulling away. Again I like and respect them but I don't get it, and since when does unison not matter? Am I correct in understanding that? Why is speed more important? Skate like a maniac and to hell with the rest, it's just stupid. Oh well I still love V&M more than anyone and I'd watch them if they put them in 20th place and still believe they were the best.

zilam98
02-12-2012, 02:45 AM
the dress looks purple in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq-xfoRo2Lw

ddtpdx
02-12-2012, 02:47 AM
but I don't get it, and since when does unison not matter? Am I correct in understanding that? Why is speed more important? Skate like a maniac and to hell with the rest, it's just stupid.

Well, it does count. But I could only find it being explicitly stipulated for the Performance/Execution mark (which is just a tiny portion of the overall mark - see below). Even then, the judges don't always give V/M the edge and that is just plain silly (IMO). Does anyone know whether it is stated in any other part of the score (eg, GOE)?

Performance/Execution
Definition: Performance is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement in pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating.

Criteria:

Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
Carriage (and body alignment - synchronized)
Style and individuality/personality
Clarity of movement
Variety and contrast
Projection
Unison and "oneness" (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)
Balance in performance (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)
Spatial awareness between partners - management of the distance between partners and management of changes of hold (pairs, ice dancing and synchronized skating)

zilam98
02-12-2012, 02:53 AM
i love how the skirt moves, but i still think an asymmetrical fringed skirt would've moved better.

ddtpdx
02-12-2012, 03:02 AM
ok, found this link (it's a little old since there is still a reference to OD), but unison is supposed to count in GOE.

http://ww2.isu.org/judging/Content&Criteria.html

so I leave it to all of you to judge for yourself whether the judges really do apply the GOE criteria correctly to differentiate V/M from D/W.

zilam98
02-12-2012, 03:23 AM
i love the fun look of the dress, but if the skirt were longer, it would've reminded me of anissina's flamenco costume for the 2002 OG. somehow, the bodice doesnt flatter tessa well. it makes her look chubby in the midsection.

also, did they work with a latin dance coach for their sd throughout their training? i wish someone could train them on the attitude of their arms when doing this kind of latin dance, especially tessa. her arm expressions tend to be too soft for latin dance, when latin dances tend to require stiffer attitude on the arms. i do love it when tessa does the shimmy in the beginning. sooo latin!

jtpc
02-12-2012, 03:28 AM
Finally some PCS I can live with in the V/M & D/W comparison. :) Nice to see Tessa and Scott rewarded with higher interpretation scores. I think they should also have higher skating skills scores, but at least that came out even and not behind. Happy that 4CC is really close so far and that 1-2 for Worlds seems to still be a toss up.

flowerpower
02-12-2012, 03:45 AM
Finally some PCS I can live with in the V/M & D/W comparison. :) Nice to see Tessa and Scott rewarded with higher interpretation scores. I think they should also have higher skating skills scores, but at least that came out even and not behind. Happy that 4CC is really close so far and that 1-2 for Worlds seems to still be a toss up.

Agreed.