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View Full Version : Virtue - Moir #14 V&M - The Future's so Bright, I Gotta wear Shades



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pani
01-30-2012, 08:31 PM
pani, you may think Tessa and Scott can't skate their SD any better, but I certainly think they can. Plus they always improved significantly between Nationals and Worlds. I'm sure I don't know why this year should be different.

Doris, you become so kind, when V-M have no chance to lose D-W :lol:

pani
01-30-2012, 08:33 PM
Maybe more than one person on this thread has the gift of knowing a stranger better than they know themselves. :D

I am flattered, but this is V-M thread - so stop talking about pani :lol:

Subway
01-30-2012, 08:36 PM
And there are some lifts and moves that are just in Every Coach's Manual of Stock Lifts and moves.

They are not proprietary to any team.

They are dance's version of the spread eagle or the Charlotte; just stuff everybody can pick to do. The Shibs final rotational lift is like that in the FD. It's like theatre or dance. If all moves had to be original then nobody would go to the ballet every year unless it wasn't just an original work, but only one dancer danced each work. You may say the same about theatre. Unless it's a new work, don't go. Once the original cast of the new work leaves, don't see it. How did Shakespeare survive so long because he's done over and over. There are small changes but not new words.

Originality is overrated. I say that even though I haven't seen many example of originality because so many people think it means contemporary theatrical and originality means looks just like everything Christopher Dean has ever done. But originality is automatic on the highest level because nobody is the same. Scott and Tessa do a move it looks like them not like D/W even if it's the same move, because they're them.

Quality is a greater consideration, what the skater brings to something. Skill, phrasing, interpretation. Although skill in its different components are what makes up the judging criteria.

Rafter
01-30-2012, 08:37 PM
Who says the problem is their programs? Funny Face is undefeated. Everybody just leaps over other possibilities. Judges have gone speed-crazy before - or for apparent speed because I think Scott and Tessa are just about as fast and shouldn't be penalized for their ability to master different tempos.

Scott and Tessa were rewarded for what they did during the Olympic season and came close to pulling it off at the last Worlds even though it was their first full competition and Tessa was out of gas by the end. Until this year they never got any idea that ice dance judging was going to act like D/W were the second coming of ice dance. If there's a problem it's not with Scott and Tessa's programs but less-than-critical judging of D/W's skating. Charlie had a twizzle issue in the fd and you'd never know it by the scoring at Nationals. How would changing environments change how the judges score D/W?

They have two very good programs. They're great programs. We've yet to see a clean performance of the new short. If anything, from my very biased opinion, the problem lies in what Tracy observed - VM aren't getting enough credit in the scoring for their skill and difficulty. They got credit for it in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. How were they or Marina/Igor supposed to predict that would possibly change and the judges would go more for in-your-face?

I think ice dance judging is more or less honest in theory. I don't have great faith in judges as people. I believe a lot of subjectivity goes into it that they isn't acnknowledged. D/W is an easy call. It's like Grishok & Platov whipping around in a frenzy on the ice. Ironically, Virtue and Moir are extremely fast, if not possibly faster than D/W, but it's not flaunted.

When did FF become a bad idea? It's beaten Strauss. We don't know about the short because Tessa and Scott haven't yet laid it down. For me, it's like a lot of people never cared for ballroom dancing or Scott and Tessa's style so they're using this situation as a pretext hoping to influence Scott and Tessa to skate another style, as they've wanted them to for years. They never seem to consider Scott and Tessa in these posts.

Well that's an optimistic view. Lol. But V&M barely "unofficially" beat D&W in the FD at GFP and they are not beating D&W in PCS anymore (which will probably be the deciding factor at worlds).

Anyway, regarding the bolded above, it's very possible that the ISU is no longer rewarding the things in ice dance that they traditionally used to - pointed toes, matching leg lines, strong unison, skating close together, etc, and maybe that's why you see V&M and P&B losing to D&W. Maybe the ISU just wants speed and great elements and the "dancing" part of it isn't important anymore.

Subway
01-30-2012, 08:39 PM
I am flattered, but this is V-M thread - so stop talking about pani :lol: True, but how can we do that when there's a blend between VM and pani in your posts? That's the challenge.

DORISPULASKI
01-30-2012, 08:42 PM
Because pani, I never count Tessa and Scott out--exactly because I often prefer Meryl & Charlie's programs. It helps to have a great program with great music, but its not the only thing. D&W's Tango was not a great program for example, and it won. Samson & Delilah was a great program, and it lost.

You need to keep the faith. Gloom and doom is not appropriate at this point.

Subway
01-30-2012, 08:44 PM
Anyway, regarding the bolded above, it's very possible that the ISU is no longer rewarding the things in ice dance that they traditionally used to - pointed toes, matching leg lines, strong unison, skating close together, etc, and maybe that's why you see V&M and P&B losing to D&W. Maybe the ISU just wants speed and great elements and the "dancing" part of it isn't important anymore. I'd separate out some of the criteria mentioned above. Dancing isn't pointed toes and matching leg lines. It's rhythm and observing the music with your bodies as you move. That's why it's a shame. Tessa and Scott skate at an incredibly high level when that is factored in. Scott gave a master class at Canadians in the free, especially. Once you set yourself the challenge of being part of the music in your movement while executing high level tech content, you've just upped the actual level of skating skills in your program. Not recognizing this drives Tracy Wilson crazy, and I don't like that it's taken for granted either. Ice dance might want to ignore the look of "dance". Pointed toes isn't part of every dance form. However, all dance is rhythm and ice dance shouldn't pretend that hitting beats is the same as actually working with the music. But judges would need to have a high level of musicality themselves I suppose to appreciate this. You're not saying this exactly, but to me it's like oh - they don't reward the look of program, those little niceties. It's more about how it's so difficult to do what Scott and Tessa do while figure skating. It actually shows they're superior figure skaters because they can do both.

pani
01-30-2012, 08:45 PM
Maybe the ISU just wants speed and great elements and the "dancing" part of it isn't important anymore.

Why in this case they made this stupid uplifting rule? And teams, who didnt show dancing and uplifting programs didnt have dedactions for this. Why?
From rules look like they wish to see dancing in ice dance. So who know what they really want to see :D

pani
01-30-2012, 08:48 PM
Because pani, I never count Tessa and Scott out--exactly because I often prefer Meryl & Charlie's programs. It helps to have a great program with great music, but its not the only thing. D&W's Tango was not a great program for example, and it won. Samson & Delilah was a great program, and it lost.

You need to keep the faith. Gloom and doom is not appropriate at this point.

I remember what did you post, when you afraid D-W could lose to V-M, so i am a little nervouse when you post something about them - i could read something about Tessas expression, like you post last season, or about they never had good prgrams. :lol:

zotza
01-30-2012, 08:49 PM
I think they don't really know what they want and that we will have new rule changes once again.But it's still subjective,it can't be, it's dancing after all and what is good for one isn't that good for the other.People have different taste.
What nobody can deny is that V/M combine both the skating abilities and dancing abilities.That's why it's frustrating when we keep reading that they only do one style.They may do one style more convincingly than the rest,but this happens to all teams.
And they're fast.They're not "running" or "galloping" but they're really fast.Nobody can deny that.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
01-30-2012, 09:00 PM
I think pani needs to remember one thing that marbri posted awhile back. Something that Tracy Wilson said that sometimes the decisions you make months ago can impact results later in the season. Unfortunately for Tessa and Scott decisions made by Marina and them months ago in choosing Funny Face will probably impact how they do this year. Blame can be placed on Marina for bringing the idea to the table for this season and on V/M for accepting it. But they have to know themselves that it will be very hard to compete against the music if Die Fledemaus. Now I think Scott has a pretty healthy ego so maybe he thinks that won't or shouldn't matter but it's quite obvious.

......

Rafter, your sentence sums up one of the biggest issues I have with icedance at the moment. I do like the music of Die Fledermaus but the piece of music in and of itself shouldn't be having that much influence. It should also be about what each team does with their music.

Many love D&W's FD and the use of Die Fledermaus but many of us feel that despite the message the judges are sending, V&M's FD to Funny Face works just as well for Tessa and Scott as D&W's music works for them.

Or maybe I'm too old school. There are certain pieces of music that I do love but when programs are skated to those pieces that don't fully use the music in both interpretation and choreography I'm not going to love those LP's/FD's just because they use a favorite piece of mine.

As an example, I love Bolero and Michelle Kwan but except for her first performance of it at one of the cheesefests that year I hated the program. I did love the programs of N&K in 1999 and C&S in 2006, not just for the music but what was done with the music.

Looking at the current trends in icedance V&M should just choose whichever music is most popular with the audiences (something huge and sweeping) and forget the rest.

Except for V&M, P&B and S&G I find the majority of the other dance programs to be largely forgettable. These days most SD's and FD's serve their purpose for the season then are quickly forgotten.


......I wonder if this will be the last yer we see Tessa and Scott compete. If they lose again at worlds I wouldn't be surprised to see Tessa wanting to retire.

I've been thinking about that. I'm one of those who wants to see V&M vacate Canton but if they finish second once more would they even bother to continue? Especially if V&M (especially Scott) feel as if they no longer will have a shot at winning another World title. Scott's reaction at the GPF makes it clear to me that V&M are not just skating only to develop themselves as artistic skaters.

Subway
01-30-2012, 09:04 PM
Fin Throhy, SC, TEB?

Different short.

Rafter, I think a woman who skated with her legs on fire isn't any less of a fiend for competing and skating than Scott. Maybe she likes to talk the talk but her actions tell another story. Nobody made her go to Worlds last season. I think she's just as intense about staying in the sport. How come people always think they're going to retire anyway? It's been speculated for so long.

Subway
01-30-2012, 09:13 PM
Guess it's all in the way you read it. I think sometimes, often, you have to reread her posts, keeping in mind english isn't her first language, and not take every little word so literally.

But that aside if you believe someone is being hysterical (and yes pani does get excited and agitated) I don't know that responding with hysteria works.

I don't think it was hysteria though. Different strokes. I was turning a mirror - making the attempt at least. The language gap doesn't change her reasoning, which refers back to herself and puts it on Scott and Tessa. We should talk about Scott and Tessa, not each other, but I wanted to clarify what I was doing.

Subway
01-30-2012, 09:16 PM
I think they don't really know what they want and that we will have new rule changes once again.But it's still subjective,it can't be, it's dancing after all and what is good for one isn't that good for the other.People have different taste.
What nobody can deny is that V/M combine both the skating abilities and dancing abilities.That's why it's frustrating when we keep reading that they only do one style.They may do one style more convincingly than the rest,but this happens to all teams.
And they're fast.They're not "running" or "galloping" but they're really fast.Nobody can deny that.

:respec:

pani
01-30-2012, 09:16 PM
If all depend fom music choice for top two teams, i hope T-S understand, that its only one time D-W could use waltz and gallop FD so why they couldnt choose soemthing loud, people friendly for next season? And if they had all stading ovations in Moscow, they wil have the same reation, like it was in Vancouver in London :)