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michiruwater
01-31-2012, 02:10 AM
Oh, I have no idea. I was speaking in general principle.

WindSpirit
01-31-2012, 02:42 AM
^This. A teacher at the local middle school was falsely accused of having a sexual relationship with a student in 2008. I've heard of a few stories like that. I think many young girls (and some women) don't understand how devastating a false rape accusation can be, and what dire consequences it can have for the falsely accused and their families, for the real rape victims, and for themselves (as it should). I think that should be included in general sexual education, either at home or at school, or both.

As well as reiteration that if you decide to have sex with someone, there's another person involved, not an object. And as with any dealings with another person, we always have to take into considerations their feelings, wants and rights. That's what rape is, when someone ceases to be perceived as a person and becomes an object.


Yes. The more I read (even if only 1/2 of the things reported "out there" are accurate), the more I am convinced she is lying for self-serving/cover-up purposes. I'm now mostly withdrawing my "she may have had post-coital drinking binge blackout and incorrectly filled in the blanks" pass. I don't buy her story, either, and it's a damn shame if she's lying, not only because of all the consequences for the falsely accused and real rape victims, but she's a grown and educated woman, she should know better. There's no excuse.


I truly do feel women's POV when it comes to rape, the right to say "no" at any point of an encounter [...] I don't think that's solely a woman's POV. Men get raped, too (and for them it's even a bigger stigma). I doubt anyone would enjoy being treated as an object.

BigB08822
01-31-2012, 02:45 AM
From everything I have read she has NEVER claimed she asked him to stop! People need to quit thinking about rape in general and think in terms of this case because some of these comments wouldn't seem so offensive if you quit applying them to every rape victim. She seems to just be claiming that she doesn't really remember what happened and therefore she was raped. I don't get the connection. Not remembering is not equal to passing out, as has been discussed. Not that I believe any of that excuse from her, anyway.

Tesla
01-31-2012, 05:17 AM
Could she have been drugged?

BigB08822
01-31-2012, 05:42 AM
It is certainly possible she was drugged but there would be no way to know now. If he has never exhibited this kind of behavior before then why would he do it this one time and why drug a woman who seems to have been more than willing on her own? I doubt a law abiding citizen decides to randomly date rape a woman and never ever does it again.

cruisin
01-31-2012, 02:11 PM
Oh, I have no idea. I was speaking in general principle.

But,we are not talking about general principle here. We are discussing this one case. In general, if a woman changes her mind, the sex should stop, period! But there's something fishy here, she invited him to her office. I think most of us agree that her intent was for sex. As you said wtf else were they going to do there? As BigBo882 said she never claimed she changed her mind, she claims she doesn't remember. That makes no sense, considering she continued to text him and ask why he's not calling her. It is also rather convenient that she got amnesia after her boyfriend found the texts. I don't think she said no. I don't think she has no memory. I do think she is covering up what she did, so that her boyfriend doesn't think she cheated on him.


Could she have been drugged?

I doubt it. She must remember something, she continued to try and reconnect with him. That certainly doesn't indicate that it was a bad (or forgettable) experience for her.

michiruwater
02-01-2012, 12:44 AM
But,we are not talking about general principle here. We are discussing this one case.

Yes, but you keep bringing this up:


But there's something fishy here, she invited him to her office. I think most of us agree that her intent was for sex. As you said wtf else were they going to do there?

My point is that this DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't pertain to whether she made it up or didn't make it up. She either invited him up to her office for the purpose of having sex and they had consensual sex and she later accused him of something he didn't do, or she invited him up to her office for the purpose of having sex, changed her mind, he raped her, and she is accusing him of something he did do.

The location and the fact that sex was the prerogative at some point in the night DON'T MATTER, in this or any other case, and repeatedly bringing it up makes it seem like women who are raped or abused after initially wanting sex were asking for it.

cruisin
02-01-2012, 12:52 AM
Yes, but you keep bringing this up:



My point is that this DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't pertain to whether she made it up or didn't make it up. She either invited him up to her office for the purpose of having sex and they had consensual sex and she later accused him of something he didn't do, or she invited him up to her office for the purpose of having sex, changed her mind, he raped her, and she is accusing him of something he did do.

The location and the fact that sex was the prerogative at some point in the night DON'T MATTER, in this or any other case, and repeatedly bringing it up makes it seem like women who are raped or abused after initially wanting sex were asking for it.

And you keep taking that comment out of the context of the rest of my comments.

1. She brought him to her office, probably for sex.
2. She never said she changed her mind, she said she doesn't remember anything.
3. She never filed a complaint until her boyfriend found her text messages to Kelly.
4. She texted him asking why he didn't call her.

All of the above indicates that there is something fishy, not just the office part.

michiruwater
02-01-2012, 01:01 AM
And my point is that number 1 is NOT FISHY.

I agree with you that 2-4 are fishy. They are just as fishy without number 1. Number 1 is NOT and does not indicate either way if a rape occurred or if she is lying. A woman can bring a man to her office for sex if she chooses to do so.

My main issue is that, without 2-4, you'd only have number 1. Many people would say number 1 in and of itself is fishy, and that should never, ever be the case.

I don't think that number 1 makes 2-4 any more or less fishy than they would be without it. I do think that it is dangerous to act like it does.

BigB08822
02-01-2012, 01:04 AM
You can't take one sentence out of their post and keep focusing on it. It is OUT OF CONTEXT. We get your point, a person can change their mind! Yes, we ALL AGREE. That still doesn't change the fact of what happened here and it still makes some of us think this seems fishy and apparently the police agree.

You can say "without 2-4" all you want but guess what, 2-4 do exist and that is how it is. You can't pick which facts you like and ignore the rest.

cruisin
02-01-2012, 01:07 AM
And my point is that number 1 is NOT FISHY.

I agree with you that 2-4 are fishy. They are just as fishy without number 1. Number 1 is NOT and does not indicate either way if a rape occurred or if she is lying. A woman can bring a man to her office for sex if she chooses to do so.

My main issue is that, without 2-4, you'd only have number 1. Many people would say number 1 in and of itself is fishy, and that should never, ever be the case.

I don't think that number 1 makes 2-4 any more or less fishy than they would be without it. I do think that it is dangerous to act like it does.

I understand your point. And I agree with you. but, for our purposes here, point 1 has to be included. simply because, had she not brought him to her office (or somewhere) the situation probably would not have transpired.

Now, please do not take this as condemnation or blame, under other circumstances where a woman does change her mind. But, women do have to be more cognizant of what they are doing. Not that they would deserve to be forced into sex, date rape, but do not bring a stranger to any place where you will be alone. It is dangerous. Again, I'm not saying that as a blame issue, but rather a precautionary measure. We do need to be more careful with our own safety.

Anita18
02-01-2012, 01:34 AM
And rape where a woman changes her mind just prior to or during sex (or "doesn't remember) is IMPOSSIBLE to prove. I think you can only really prove rape if the victim was obviously drugged or if she put up a real struggle. He-said she-said is never a good rape case. :o

cruisin
02-01-2012, 02:31 AM
And rape where a woman changes her mind just prior to or during sex (or "doesn't remember) is IMPOSSIBLE to prove. I think you can only really prove rape if the victim was obviously drugged or if she put up a real struggle. He-said she-said is never a good rape case. :o

I think that the texts are going to be of significant value, in this case.

BigB08822
02-01-2012, 04:29 AM
I will be surprised if this ever goes to court, to be honest. Wouldn't a judge look at this and say there is just zero evidence? Maybe she has something we don't know about but it sounds like the only thing she can prove is that there was sexual intercourse and that is it. I expect she will try to quietly drop charges.

Japanfan
02-01-2012, 07:47 AM
No, but I will tell you one thing, I would not consider for one second doing what she did - going out for drinks and then going someplace private with someone I don't know well enough to know that said person has the self-control enough to be able to keep my welfare in mind, above and beyond whatever he may have in mind. The only time I have done the drinks-and-then-someplace-private was when I'd known the guy for well over a year, and what ended up happening was completely consensual on both sides.


This sounds to me like the blame the victim "I'm not the type of woman to get raped" argument. All types of women get raped and most rapes are performed by someone the victim knows. Date rape is particularly common and during that year when you are getting to know a guy he might decide he doesn't want to wait for sex. You could be in a car or a secluded part of park, and it could happen. Or it could happen after you have consented to sex, on a occasion when you say no.

In this case I'm saddened to once again see the victim's credibility immediately questions. It's possible that she was rape and didn't say so for some time because she was afraid to or in denial, or because her boyfriend supported her. Sure, it's going to be a difficult case to prove, but it could well have happened. Being drunk is generally see as equal to not giving consent, although the courts will probably need more than that.