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julieann
06-29-2012, 07:15 PM
I agree with you. It would have made better sense to ignore the meltdown at Canadians and sent them on to Worlds, while Dube/Wolfe got more seasoning at the 4CC's. Its just ridiculous how MTM were cut off at the knees, IMO.

MT/M wouldn't have done very well at Worlds anyway based on their performances during the year. The highest score they've got was 177.43, that would have put them 10th in a best case scenario. This just wasn't their year.

lovesskating
06-29-2012, 08:40 PM
So what was Meagan and Eric's highest score throught the year?

julieann
06-30-2012, 12:44 AM
So what was Meagan and Eric's highest score throught the year?

185.41 at Worlds

lavenderblue
06-30-2012, 01:03 AM
Of course, prior to Worlds D/R's season-best international score was 176.62 at TEB. If skaters train to peak at Worlds, those scores should be higher than what comes in the GP. As it stands, looking purely at those results, the two teams were in a pretty similar range prior to Nationals, though of course it's comparing scores across different events.

julieann
06-30-2012, 01:19 AM
Of course, prior to Worlds D/R's season-best international score was 176.62 at TEB. If skaters train to peak at Worlds, those scores should be higher than what comes in the GP. As it stands, looking purely at those results, the two teams were in a pretty similar range prior to Nationals, though of course it's comparing scores across different events.

D/R had 3 deductions in the free at TEB it was a terrible competition for them. MT/M couldn't even get on the podium at nationals after winner the year before; I doubt they would have made up 20 points above their personal best to be in realm of K/S and B/L at Worlds when they couldn't even get to the GPF or beat D/W or L/S at CN.

I have no doubt they are regrouping and will be much stronger this year. But they certainly didn't deserve to be sent with last seasons performances.

flowerpower
06-30-2012, 01:28 AM
Meagan and Eric were beaten by S/S, V/T, T/T and P/T. No surprise about S/S, V/T, and P/T. T/T did surprisingly well, but on a different day K/S and B/L could have performed better than they did. Bottom line - fifth was an excellent result for Meagan and Eric. Could MT-M have achieved eighth place? Maybe, but no guarantees. So to say that the two teams together would have earned three places for Canada in pairs at the next WCh is by no means certain.

julieann
06-30-2012, 01:50 AM
Meagan and Eric were beaten by S/S, V/T, T/T and P/T. No surprise about S/S, V/T, and P/T. T/T did surprisingly well, but on a different day K/S and B/L could have performed better than they did. Bottom line - fifth was an excellent result for Meagan and Eric. Could MT-M have achieved eighth place? Maybe, but no guarantees. So to say that the two teams together would have earned three places for Canada in pairs at the next WCh is by no means certain.

I agree. D/R had trouble with jumps and K/S and B/L had a horrible competition and the scores were so close there really could have been a shake up anywhere. I think MT/M would have been somewhere around D/C.

kwanfan1818
06-30-2012, 01:56 AM
I think MT/M would have been somewhere around D/C.
Somewhere around Denney/Coughlin was 8th, which with Duhamel/Radford's 5th would have meant three spots.

flowerpower
06-30-2012, 02:09 AM
Somewhere around Denney/Coughlin was 8th, which with Duhamel/Radford's 5th would have meant three spots.

If they beat D/C (rather than D/C beating them). Plus 5th was pretty much best-case for D/R...they could have been slightly lower.

kwanfan1818
06-30-2012, 03:44 AM
If they beat D/C (rather than D/C beating them). Plus 5th was pretty much best-case for D/R...they could have been slightly lower.
D/R could have been a lot lower had they had a similar SP to theirs at 4C's, where they didn't look like a top 10 team at Euros, let alone Worlds. However, the national team was decided before 4C's, except for Ladies.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of SC sending M-T/M to Worlds until this thread. (Perhaps if they had been a close third, but not skipping over both D/W and L/S.) However, if I had and were looking at the odds of getting three spots, I would have bet my v-cash on M-T/M having a much greater potential upside based on their technical content and experience.

I was responding to the suggestion that M-T/M could "only" do as well as D/C, who, numerically, did enough.

flowerpower
06-30-2012, 04:17 AM
D/R could have been a lot lower had they had a similar SP to theirs at 4C's, where they didn't look like a top 10 team at Euros, let alone Worlds. However, the national team was decided before 4C's, except for Ladies.

I hadn't thought of the possibility of SC sending M-T/M to Worlds until this thread. (Perhaps if they had been a close third, but not skipping over both D/W and L/S.) However, if I had and were looking at the odds of getting three spots, I would have bet my v-cash on M-T/M having a much greater potential upside based on their technical content and experience.

I was responding to the suggestion that M-T/M could "only" do as well as D/C, who, numerically, did enough.

I agree with various posters that on paper, MT-M had a better past track record than L/S or D/W (implying possible success at Worlds). But after they finished 4th at Nationals (with a disastrous performance) I don't know how it would have been possible to justify sending them to the WCh. You have to deliver when it counts, especially when the field is deep.

kwanfan1818
06-30-2012, 04:29 AM
USFS justified choosing Dornbush for first alternate to 4C's, and he had a disastrous Nationals. SC justified not sending Emmanuel Sandhu to Olympics and National Champion Pfaneuf to (senior) Worlds when it suited them.

Again, I wouldn't have expected SC to have skipped over L/S, but they might have had a 4C's face-off between D/W and M/T-M had M/T-M come in a close third, especially with Worlds being in London the following year.

julieann
06-30-2012, 04:46 AM
Somewhere around Denney/Coughlin was 8th, which with Duhamel/Radford's 5th would have meant three spots.

Hypothetically their personally best of 177 would have only had them in 10th. They would have had to beat a team they couldn't beat months before also Marley and Brubaker. They also could have finished as low as 13th.

At any rate D/W earned their spot and did pretty well for only their first year. I think they are a much better team than this season reflects.

flowerpower
06-30-2012, 04:56 AM
But who to send to 4CC?

D/R were the national champs and very much wanted to go and try to win (see post-nats interviews). Do you deny them?

L/S are a strong team and needed a good score to earn future GP assignments. Do you deny them?

D/W were second at Nats - should they be bypassed?

Sorry, but MT-M did not deliver when it counted. Who would you keep home so that MT-M could have a second chance at qualifying for Worlds?

kwanfan1818
06-30-2012, 05:17 AM
Skate Canada agrees with you in this case that performing at Canadian Nationals was the only thing that counted. (They didn't for Ladies.) MT-M are #12 on the SB list, from their score at SA; D/W are 19th, from their score at SC. MT-M's score was 177.43; the highest D/W scored in international competition was 158.44. That's pretty easy math. D/W had three chances to surpass their first score -- TEB, 4C's, Worlds -- and they didn't. M-T/M had a lower score at CoC, but they still broke 170.

I'm not sure how many times I have to post that I think that M-T/M should have been considered only if they were a close third to D/W, in which case it would have been a no-brainer to have a skate-off at 4C's, like they did for Ladies, and for Ladies, SC was willing to punt the reigning national champion, which would not have been the case for Pairs.

Lawrence/Swiegers didn't need a good score at 4C's to earn future GP assignments: they would have been 21st in World Standings even without their 4C's points, and would have been guaranteed a spot. ETA: They also would have been Top 24 SB with their score from SC.