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View Full Version : US Ladies [#3]: 2011-12 news, musings & everything else



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krenseby
03-12-2012, 03:55 AM
It's then up to USFS to step in and inquire into Czisny's condition and readiness for Worlds. Obviously (like Flatt last year, and many other skaters) she is going to want to press through it, but if she's not in condition to skate at least respectably- if there's something ailing her then if Team Czisny won't disclose it, it's up to USFS to get to the bottom of things. It's their rep on the line as well as Team Czisny's at Worlds.

Well my question would be, how much training time did she miss due to injury? I think if there was a period of time where she stopped practicing her triples for the sake of recovery, that might have eroded her confidence. But I have no idea. Neither does Phil Hersh.

Theatregirl1122
03-12-2012, 04:08 AM
When Alissa places well, it's because others mess up....

Which still means they didn't pass her, right?


Uhhh that was never my logic so don't assume it was. All I am saying is there is no way Alissa can keep up with these upcoming skaters whose technique is so much stronger than Alissa's (Gracie, Elizaveta, Julia, Adelina, etc.). As I said before, Alissa often struggles with double axels in practice. Artistry can only take you so far. You have to be able to land the jumps too.

I didn't assume anything about your logic. I assumed that you were saying that Alissa would get passed by the up and comers. And since that is exactly what you said, it wasn't much of an assumption. And I still don't see how what you are saying now is any different than what has been said about junior skaters for years. Maybe they will pass her, maybe they won't. But so far a generation of juniors who was supposed to leave Alissa in the dust is already old enough to be considered veterans.

nyskater09
03-12-2012, 05:24 AM
Which still means they didn't pass her, right?



I didn't assume anything about your logic. I assumed that you were saying that Alissa would get passed by the up and comers. And since that is exactly what you said, it wasn't much of an assumption. And I still don't see how what you are saying now is any different than what has been said about junior skaters for years. Maybe they will pass her, maybe they won't. But so far a generation of juniors who was supposed to leave Alissa in the dust is already old enough to be considered veterans.

No. You're not getting it. I never said that Alissa would be passed up by Mirai, Rachael, etc. I was never one of those people who said that. This is the first time I am saying this. And the logic is simple. With a jumping technique like Alissa's, how will she NOT be passed up? She does not have the jumps or the consistency and I think some people (including the USFSA) are finally getting sick of it. Gracie Gold has solid technique and is working hard to improve her artistry. The Russians have a crop of very solid technical skaters on the horizon- the likes of which I do not think we've seen in awhile. Ashley is gaining more confidence, she has the goods to deliver, and she's consistent. I think the competition will be stiff and unless Alissa's jumps magically change, she will be in trouble. I think this upcoming crop of skaters is the strongest that we've seen in awhile.

victoriaheidi
03-12-2012, 07:22 AM
It's then up to USFS to step in and inquire into Czisny's condition and readiness for Worlds. Obviously (like Flatt last year, and many other skaters) she is going to want to press through it, but if she's not in condition to skate at least respectably- if there's something ailing her then if Team Czisny won't disclose it, it's up to USFS to get to the bottom of things. It's their rep on the line as well as Team Czisny's at Worlds.

Because USFS is such a self-starting organization. :shuffle:

Sorry, RD. It's not meant to be snark at you. It's snark at the fact that USFS clearly didn't monitor well last year, and I'm not sure they really addressed the monitoring error--ever.

kwanatic
03-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Because USFS is such a self-starting organization. :shuffle:

Sorry, RD. It's not meant to be snark at you. It's snark at the fact that USFS clearly didn't monitor well last year, and I'm not sure they really addressed the monitoring error--ever.

I think, given what happened last year with Rachael, the USFSA will be a bit more concerned with why Alissa tanked the way she did at this competition. How stupid would they look to have the same thing happen two years in a row? BUT, in Alissa's defense, I think if she were injured she and her team would be responsible enough to alert the USFSA; I don't think they'd try to keep it all hushed up like Rachael and her team did.

Personally, I don't think she's injured. Her problems in those programs looked more mental than physical to me. Those kind of lost-in-the-air mistakes and falls feel more like a lack of confidence and timing IMO. They said she was 100% healed at nationals, but sometimes injuries can have a lingering effect even after they're healed. If she's being tentative (more so than usual) it may be b/c she scared of re-injuring herself and that kind of thinking can eff with your confidence pretty badly.

It's clear her confidence has dipped back down into the red zone. It hasn't been where it was last season all year long, so I'm not surprised this has happened...I just hope all of that talk of mental toughness comes into play b/c she's going to need to refocus her mind and pick herself back up heading into worlds.

Either way, it's going to be the same question for Alissa at worlds this year: Which Alissa are we getting today?

demetriosj
03-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Which still means they didn't pass her, right?




.

because IMHO, she has had the luck o' the Irish on her side over the years! (OK I realize she's not Irish, but we are nearing St. Patrick's Day..)

Czisny has been extremely lucky throughout her skating career that skaters who were clearly more talented than her in the jumping/speed/strength area have all fallen to the wayside due to injury/and/or growth spurts, etc..

she's cut a lot of breaks, plus USFS just seems to adore her..

Wyliefan
03-12-2012, 02:04 PM
http://twitter.com/#!/AshWagner2010/status/175683832136212480/photo/1 :rofl:

:rofl: I can sympathize. I'm the world's worst parker (a cigarette-smoking woman outside Barnes and Noble pointed this out to me just yesterday).

Angela-Fan
03-12-2012, 04:10 PM
((wylifan)) Lol. Once, a long time ago, while I was waiting in line at the bank, some grumpy older man (a lot older) told me to learn how to park. I did not take that well. At all. :shuffle: There are more polite ways to tell someone their parking job was bad. Actually I would never say a word to someone who didn't park well. Everyone has bad days and makes mistakes.

Jammers
03-12-2012, 06:01 PM
Sad to say but it does tell you something about US Ladies skating over the last 6-7 years that someone who first skated at Nats as a Senior over ten years ago is still considered one of the tops Ladies in the US now. It tells you how most every skater that has come up since then has not panned out.

5Ali3
03-12-2012, 06:06 PM
Just curious: Aren't Kostner, Joubert, etc. on a similar training/tapering schedule since they are going to worlds?
(I honestly dunno)

I honestly don't know anything about Kostner and Joubert's training/tapering schedule; presumably, they're also aiming to peak at Worlds, but there's more than one training plan. Different coaches have different opinions, and different plans work for different skaters. Ideally, a coach matches the training/tapering plan to the skater, but unfortunately, that doesn't always happen.


It may be the case but neither Alissa or Abbott is the most confident performers. Not sure what showing up like this in competition-does for their self esteem.

Speculating, but I suspect the result on self-confidence depends on their goals/attitudes going into the competition. Let's say Sam Skater's goal was to put his quad into his short. If he lands it, that's probably good for his confidence. If he falls on it, it might be bad for his confidence, but it might be a learning experience: does his timing speed up in competition and he needs to learn to control his adrenaline? does he become less aggressive in an attempt to make sure that he doesn't fall (which almost inevitably tends to result in a fall, of course)? does he forget his keywords and start thinking, "don't fall"? how does a fall affect the remainder of the program? if the quad isn't the first jump, do the jumps before the quad fall apart because he's thinking ahead to the quad?



Sorry, RD. It's not meant to be snark at you. It's snark at the fact that USFS clearly didn't monitor well last year, and I'm not sure they really addressed the monitoring error--ever.

Monitoring depends, in part, on transparency from the athlete and the coach. If the athlete and/or coach wants to hide something from the monitor, it's pretty easy to do so. Pre-competition monitoring is done by USFSA officials (i.e., judges and technical panel officials, not paid USFSA staff), who aren't allowed to question coaches' expertise or methods; I posted about this recently, maybe in some pair thread, so I won't go into detail here. I've also posted before that the greater skating community is like a [very] dysfunctional family, and, as in a family, there's an assumption of trust. I can't recall another instance in which an athlete/coach deliberately misled the rest of the family about such a serious injury at such a big competition. Had Flatt disclosed the injury prior to leaving for Worlds, I speculate - based solely on prior experience and not on anything specifically related to Flatt's situation - that she would have been kept on the team, given the timing of the diagnosis. The single biggest problem was the violation of trust. You can't lie to family about anything except whether you like their new haircut. :lol:


US National is a pre-judged event, IMO. They wanted to give Ashley a chance, however, they were not ready to dump Alissa and they still have some hope for Zhang. That's how the podium turned out. The same for ice dance, they love H/D and pushed this team all the way since day one, even they're not quite ready which showed at 4 CC's result. USFS has their own plan and at times, they chose the wrong skater(s). I also see no reason to send Jeremy and Alissa to Hague. It turned out to be a disaster and demoralized them before Worlds.

Not.A.Hive-Borg-Mind.

RD
03-12-2012, 06:08 PM
Sad to say but it does tell you something about US Ladies skating over the last 6-7 years that someone who first skated at Nats as a Senior over ten years ago is still considered one of the tops Ladies in the US now. It tells you how most every skater that has come up since then has not panned out.

While I agree for the most part, I'm willing to give Czisny a little more credit than that. Had she woken up years ago, she definitely would have been competitive with Cohen and Meissner at least. The potential was always there but the jumps sucked. She was a late bloomer for sure, and it appears she may have peaked last season as a skater.

victoriaheidi
03-12-2012, 06:32 PM
I think, given what happened last year with Rachael, the USFSA will be a bit more concerned with why Alissa tanked the way she did at this competition. How stupid would they look to have the same thing happen two years in a row? BUT, in Alissa's defense, I think if she were injured she and her team would be responsible enough to alert the USFSA; I don't think they'd try to keep it all hushed up like Rachael and her team did.

Personally, I don't think she's injured. Her problems in those programs looked more mental than physical to me. Those kind of lost-in-the-air mistakes and falls feel more like a lack of confidence and timing IMO. They said she was 100% healed at nationals, but sometimes injuries can have a lingering effect even after they're healed. If she's being tentative (more so than usual) it may be b/c she scared of re-injuring herself and that kind of thinking can eff with your confidence pretty badly.

It's clear her confidence has dipped back down into the red zone. It hasn't been where it was last season all year long, so I'm not surprised this has happened...I just hope all of that talk of mental toughness comes into play b/c she's going to need to refocus her mind and pick herself back up heading into worlds.

Either way, it's going to be the same question for Alissa at worlds this year: Which Alissa are we getting today?

I hope the monitoring is better. I really do, for everyone's sake. No one benefits from USFS being hands-off on monitoring.

I don't know that she has a specific injury, but I feel like she's physically worn out and mentally overloaded.

smarts1
03-12-2012, 08:06 PM
Either way, who would be the best option to send besides Alissa? Because I quite frankly don't see one... The only closest option that I can see would probably be to send Caroline.

victoriaheidi
03-12-2012, 09:00 PM
Re: Kostner and Joubert: IMO, it's hard to compare European skaters to American skaters when it comes to training because of the different season structure, with Nationals in the fall vs. winter and the fact that Joubert and Koster don't have to worry about falling off the World team in the way that American skaters do. It's just so different.

RD
03-12-2012, 09:05 PM
Either way, who would be the best option to send besides Alissa? Because I quite frankly don't see one... The only closest option that I can see would probably be to send Caroline.

Exactly. This is what I pointed out on another forum but basically, unless she is SERIOUSLY injured, Czisny is really the best option we've got. Especially when you consider who would go in her place were she to WD...that's right, it's not CZhang (who IMO would be the best option considering things), but Zawadzki...and with all due respect to her, she is just as unreliable as Czisny, AND she lacks the scoring advantage Czisny has. In fact, I believe Zawadzki's SB is only a few points higher than what Czisny scored for the egg she laid at Challenge Cup...now how's that for comfort?? :scream: