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Triple Butz
01-12-2012, 05:45 PM
The problem with it would be : if I am a skater who particularly doesn't like one jump, I wouldn't win anything no matter what. Then the year after, with another jump, I could.
Imagine on an Olympic year : the choosen jump would be just so important.

Anyway, I agree that the SP needs to change to be more do or die. Or at least, something different than the LP. We need to evaluate something different in the 2 programs. Actually, LP is a longer SP. It doesn't make sense to have two programs like that.

This is absolutely not true. A fall on a rotated jump could still get decent credit, as does a landed jump with an edge violation, and some points could still be scraped up if the skater did a nice double. I know a double is currently not allowed, but as I said before, I think they should allow a double or triple if the solo jump rotated. These are elite senior ladies. They should all be able to at least make a decent attempt at landing all of the triples.

Look at Yuna Kim in 2010. If the solo triple had been a loop in the short program, I bet she would have restructured her training and nailed it. Even if she hadn't, she could have done a double, or fallen on a rotated triple and still have been in striking distance of the podium. How many times that season did she skate a so-so long program because of her SP cushion? Losing a few points in the sp because of her weakness would not have meant certain doom, it simply would have meant that she needed to go all out in the LP.

Triple Butz
01-12-2012, 05:52 PM
Actually, it would be easy to distinguish both jumps (Flutz and Flip). If you can't, that because they are both the same.
That's what I don't understand about this rule. A Flutz should be a Lutz from an outside edge switching to a flat at the very end before the take off. Not a clear inside edge !

For example, Alena Leonova is a mystery for me : http://youtu.be/lNPAoEjrsxk?t=1m52s
She does a mohawk right before the jump. So, she is on an inside edge, a Flip, end of story. Why they called it a Lutz (e) ? :confused:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2011/gpjpn2011_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

At NHK, the caller identified that same pass along with two others as flips. Fortunately for Alena, she doubled one and avoided a Zayak violation.


Yes, I'm pretty sure her 1989 and 1990 Worlds programs had 8 triples, and likely her 1991 Lalique program as well. I would guess there are some other programs from fall competitions and Japanese Nationals when she did the triple axel and 7 other triples as well.

Midori's 6+ triple programs would be difficult to count since so many of hers wouldn't have been televised, but she was so unbelievably consistent pre-1991 that I'd be surprised if she didn't have the highest number...it's such a shame that she started to have injury and inconsistency problems right when figures were eliminated. She could have been unbeatable for several years by today's standards.

No, when Midori started doing the axel, she stopped repeating the sal. She only ever did seven.

I believe Kimmie Meissner came pretty close at a local US Club competition (Liberty?) in the 2004/2005 season where she landed a two-footed 3A along with 7 other triples according to reports. But, to this day, no lady has performed 8 totally clean triples.

briancoogaert
01-12-2012, 06:15 PM
It looks to me that she clearly is on an outside edge after the turn (i.e., it's a choctaw, not a mohawk), and then rocks over to inside at the last split second. Tricky call, but Lutz (e) is probably correct. Was there also a < call?
She stays on the same straightline, that's why for me, it's not a choctaw. I guess she went from the left inside to the right flat, then right inside for the jump.
No, no <, she got -.8 for that jump. ;)

BigB08822
01-12-2012, 09:46 PM
Leonova is doing a flip and getting away with it. It isn't even an edge change, it is just a flip being called another jump. IMO. I know others say they see it differently but my eyes see a flip every time.

MR-FAN
01-13-2012, 03:43 AM
Leonova is doing a flip and getting away with it. It isn't even an edge change, it is just a flip being called another jump. IMO. I know others say they see it differently but my eyes see a flip every time.

Until the GPF. I was VERY turned off when I saw her LP debut at the Japan Open earlier this season because she did 3 flips. I never liked the "e" rule to begin with, but seeing Alena/Morozov exploit the whole "intended triple" loophole so blatantly rubbed me off the wrong way. I mean look at this entrance to the lutz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26EKyfdzw4#t=1m44s) vs the flip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26EKyfdzw4#t=2m43s). Which one is "intended" to be a lutz?

At the GPF though, she showed the intention to perform a lutz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ql9PkPEf4#t=1m53s), and I'm glad she and Morozov didn't continue with this charades (no excuse though for the technical specialists who marked her flip as a lutz(e) earlier in the season. They should've known better

antmanb
01-13-2012, 11:39 AM
For example, Alena Leonova is a mystery for me : http://youtu.be/lNPAoEjrsxk?t=1m52s
She does a mohawk right before the jump. So, she is on an inside edge, a Flip, end of story. Why they called it a Lutz (e) ? :confused:

Not sure, I've watched it twice and the turn before looks like a choctaw - she does hit an outside edge on the left foot and the knee action looks more choctaw than mohawk to me. The edge then flattens out by the take off.


Until the GPF. I was VERY turned off when I saw her LP debut at the Japan Open earlier this season because she did 3 flips. I never liked the "e" rule to begin with, but seeing Alena/Morozov exploit the whole "intended triple" loophole so blatantly rubbed me off the wrong way. I mean look at this entrance to the lutz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26EKyfdzw4#t=1m44s) vs the flip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26EKyfdzw4#t=2m43s). Which one is "intended" to be a lutz?

To be honest the flip is no question - the set up is a RFI mohawk and it is clearly so, with the Lutz, the entrance into the turnh is different and clearly looks like a choctaw with a flat/inner switch at the point of takeoff.

If you look at her upper body leading up to and going into the turns, she is doing different motions.

Marco
01-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Nevermind

JanetB
01-13-2012, 05:16 PM
I think the only skater without edge calls and/or under rotations that has done a 7 triple performance is Joannie Rochette.

falling_dance
01-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Rachael Flatt was credited with seven triples with correct takeoffs at 2009 Skate America.

TheresMaude
01-13-2012, 07:09 PM
I think the only skater without edge calls and/or under rotations that has done a 7 triple performance is Joannie Rochette.Did Ito have jump flaws? Or perhaps you weren't going that far back. I'm so happy this thread prompted me to look up some of her old programs. Doing triple-triples and triple axels in 1984. Whoa! (although she fell on the axel in the program from 1984 NHK that I watched).

Compared to her, it almost sounds ridiculous to call the jumps other ladies do by the same name They just seem like totally different moves.

JanetB
01-13-2012, 07:48 PM
Rachael Flatt was credited with seven triples with correct takeoffs at 2009 Skate America.


Did Ito have jump flaws? Or perhaps you weren't going that far back. I'm so happy this thread prompted me to look up some of her old programs. Doing triple-triples and triple axels in 1984. Whoa! (although she fell on the axel in the program from 1984 NHK that I watched).

I had forgotten about Rachael and was not going back as far as Midori. So that makes 3 ladies in the last 30 years that can actually do 7 triples correctly in a program.


Compared to her, it almost sounds ridiculous to call the jumps other ladies do by the same name They just seem like totally different moves.

I actually like Joannie's jumps better than Midori's because Joannie's Air position is better.

gkelly
01-13-2012, 08:03 PM
Did Ito have jump flaws?

I don't think she had a habit of wrong-edge takeoffs or underrotations. Of course not even she could be perfect on every jump.

Some might consider her free leg position in the air to be a flaw, but not one that would require negative GOE in today's rules.

briancoogaert
01-13-2012, 08:13 PM
I actually like Joannie's jumps better than Midori's because Joannie's Air position is better.
And I'd say Joannie is more a natural jumper, in the way that her toe pick is so smooth, and she manages to have amazing jumps with such a light take off.
Anyway, Midori Ito is more powerful and her jumps are so much higher and stronger.


I don't think she had a habit of wrong-edge takeoffs or underrotations. Of course not even she could be perfect on every jump.

Some might consider her free leg position in the air to be a flaw, but not one that would require negative GOE in today's rules.
Really ? What was the rule back in 2007 and 2008 ? Didn't Yukari Nakano receive negative GOE for her jumps at Worlds ?

gkelly
01-13-2012, 08:31 PM
Really ? What was the rule back in 2007 and 2008 ?

Here (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-179501-196719-109218-0-file,00.pdf) is the list of GOE reductions (pp. 6 and 7) from ISU Communication 1396, which came out sometime in summer 2006. Nothing at all about air position on jumps.

The current rules (Communication 1611) do mention poor air position as a reason for -1 to -2 GOE reduction, under the column for which the final GOE need not be negative.
What constitutes a "poor" air position is not defined and therefore a matter of opinon.


Didn't Yukari Nakano receive negative GOE for her jumps at Worlds ?

In 2008, only on jumps that were downgraded (<, by the rules at the time).
In 2007 she had a few stray minuses, overall -GOE on the lutz combo in each program.

ChibiChibi
01-13-2012, 08:51 PM
At Japanese Nationals in last December, Satoko Miyahara did a 6 triple performance without any edge calls. She got < on her 3T in 3Lz-3T, but if she can clean that up, she'll have a 7 triple performance.

http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2011-2012/fs_e/national/data0205.pdf