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kwanatic
01-06-2012, 09:05 PM
I've seen her COE live, and yes, she had the hang of it. The judges thought so too. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suyKb3-JWyQ&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL229A442821C4A629

Well that was pretty good :rolleyes:...but I still think in terms of edge depth and strength she doesn't really compare to some of the others. That spiral sequence was faboo though! :D Sasha definitely had some of the most creative spirals...and later Caroline Zhang.

IceAlisa
01-06-2012, 09:10 PM
But in terms of great ice coverage with less strokes and more difficulty:

Michelle Kwan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bUu-zsd1hLA#t=180s) - from one end to the next with zero strokes in between, including a change of edge...all while holding the same position.

and another

Yu-Na Kim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o3qaPtr5Re0#t=65s) - again, from one end to the other, with zero strokes in between including a change of edge and position.
Kwan's is beautiful but Kim's makes me cringe. Yes, it covers a lot of ice but her above the boot position is just ugly. I was never a fan of her skating because of her lack of extension and stretch in body, limbs and toes.

kwanette
01-06-2012, 09:12 PM
To clarify, I'm not debating that Irina had excellent ice coverage, just that the spiral positions (especially in context of this thread/discussion) don't measure up to Kwan, Cohen, etc. in terms of difficultly. In that clip Irina has great speed and coverage but her positions were weak and she didn't sustain any position for longer than maybe two and a half seconds.

But in terms of great ice coverage with less strokes and more difficulty:

Michelle Kwan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bUu-zsd1hLA#t=180s) - from one end to the next with zero strokes in between, including a change of edge...all while holding the same position.





Thanks, gave me a chance to rewatch that glorious program and hear the guys from Eurosport..

kwanatic
01-06-2012, 09:15 PM
Kwan's is beautiful but Kim's makes me cringe. Yes, it covers a lot of ice but her above the boot position is just ugly.

:lol: I've never been a fan of her spiral position because it's rather :yikes: to me. I'm ol' school: I like nice extension and pointed feet, so Yu-Na's spirals and spins always touched a nerve. BUT I definitely respect the speed and coverage she maintains. Her position isn't terrible; it's better than quite a few out there...but it could be a lot better.

I always say Yu-Na's lines from her waist up are glorious: lovely arms, shoulders, neck and head...but from the waist down it was a different story.

gkelly
01-06-2012, 09:16 PM
To clarify, I'm not debating that Irina had excellent ice coverage, just that the spiral positions (especially in context of this thread/discussion) don't measure up to Kwan, Cohen, etc. in terms of difficultly. In that clip Irina has great speed and coverage but her positions were weak and she didn't sustain any position for longer than maybe two and a half seconds.

But in terms of great ice coverage with less strokes and more difficulty:

Michelle Kwan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bUu-zsd1hLA#t=180s) - from one end to the next with zero strokes in between, including a change of edge...all while holding the same position.

and another

Yu-Na Kim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=o3qaPtr5Re0#t=65s) - again, from one end to the other, with zero strokes in between including a change of edge and position.


I'm talking about total ice coverage for three positions. Kwan doesn't have a third position and doesn't get as close to the boards. Kim doesn't get as close to the end of the ice and takes more strokes between her second and third position that Slutskaya took between the first and second.

The fact the same amount of ice or more can be covered in fewer seconds is a plus, not a minus. ;)

And I would argue (based on my own skill level, which is far below that of any of these skaters) that a forward inside-to-outside change of edge while maintaining the spiral position (I can do it) is easier than back inside spiral-drop free leg for back inside three-back up to forward outside spiral (I can't, or certainly not at speed).

But you see what you want to see.


I'm not talking about beauty of positions at all, by the way. My initial post was to appreciate spiral sequences that impressed me for other reasons.

IceAlisa
01-06-2012, 09:18 PM
I've been rewatching Cohen's spirals and am wondering that she may not have covered as much ice during a spiral because she was trying to cram so many different spiral positions into a sequence, fan, arabesque, charlotte, etc. She had to interrupt her spiral to get into the next position.

IceAlisa
01-06-2012, 09:19 PM
:lol: I've never been a fan of her spiral position because it's rather :yikes: to me. I'm ol' school: I like nice extension and pointed feet, so Yu-Na's spirals and spins always touched a nerve. BUT I definitely respect the speed and coverage she maintains. Her position isn't terrible; it's better than quite a few out there...but it could be a lot better.

Sorry, I think it's terrible for someone of her caliber. My pet peeve with YuNa was always the lack of pointed toes and lack of any attempt at extension of any of her body and limbs. It killed the enjoyment of her skating for me. :drama:

Didn't really think much of her arms either. :shuffle:

kwanatic
01-06-2012, 09:24 PM
But you see what you want to see.

I'm not talking about beauty of positions at all, by the way. My initial post was to appreciate spiral sequences that impressed me for other reasons.


Fair enough.;) I respect the speed and coverage Irina had there but, IMO, the lesser degree of difficulty in terms of positions and sustaining the movement across the ice makes it less impressive...but that's just me.

bartek
01-06-2012, 11:26 PM
For me Sasha's spirals wins hands down because of many different reasons. I know that Kwan had better change of egde and generally her change of edge spiral was excellent. However, her spiral glory is seen only in that one spiral and maybe also in her charlotte. And that's all!! COE arabesque and backward charlotte. Tell her to do Y spiral, fan spiral or biellman spiral and hold it for a few seconds with the same sureness and control she has in her COE arabesque. People, you won't see it there! She was brilliant only in COE, that's all. Sasha has variety of beautiful positions with fantastic control, extention, toe point, back position and when the COP came into the scene she was easily able to do all the features for levels AND bullets for GOE. On the other hand, Kwan was crushed by COP spiral sequence, because she had to include three positions, ALL held for at least three seconds. It wasn't enough anymore to hold COE arabesque for a long time and then go to the next element.

Look here, she does beautiful COE arabesque and then she has shaky edge on her fan spiral, poor extention and holds it for about one second. Then, look at her Y-spiral, it's done basically on the flat.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYMR6B8s8I&t=2m52s

This is a perfect spiral sequence by Sasha which got one of the highest score ever:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPsDX9AiHEQ&t=1m36s
Perfect extention, toe point, minimal delay between positions, control in her edges, good change of edge etc. And the positions are very difficult, Kwan wouldn't ever do backward Y spiral and change it to fan spiral or that backward biellman.

iarispiralllyof
01-07-2012, 12:46 AM
On the other hand, Kwan was crushed by COP spiral sequence, because she had to include three positions, ALL held for at least three seconds. It wasn't enough anymore to hold COE arabesque for a long time and then go to the next element.

Look here, she does beautiful COE arabesque and then she has shaky edge on her fan spiral, poor extention and holds it for about one second. Then, look at her Y-spiral, it's done basically on the flat.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYMR6B8s8I&t=2m52s


in this clip here, michelle's y spiral is definitely not on a flat (which shows she continued to try and mold her skating to COP and add new positions, even as her body was injured):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50xiHVKtU0#t=2m47s

COP rules change all the time and there is no more requirement for 3 spiral positions held for 3 seconds. also in the clip you posted it was her first real COP competition and one of her worst major competition performances in 10 years. as I recall her timing to the music was totally off among other things because she was rushing to bend to the new rules and hold her spins and positions longer

also what's special about her change of edge is that it isn't just glorious when it's a forward spiral but also as a backwards spiral which has been demonstrated earlier in this thread. this in addition to her charlotte, fine kerrigan spiral, and the ability to do a y spiral the few times she even considered it. the y spin is like an old friend for her, I'm sure it wasn't a huge ordeal to adjust that position to a spiral move, it's likely easier to hold than an arabesque since there's the aid of the hand, she just hadn't needed a new position before COP

before COP michelle tended to only hold her COE and kerrigan and then do a really quick back catchfoot or y spiral for like half a second

iarispiralllyof
01-07-2012, 12:56 AM
In terms of other spirals, Sasha's fan spiral to skid move (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sBLujpeQQC8#t=161s) is a favorite of mine.



agreed. I think that's sasha's most magnificent move. the thing is, even though mao has a good position on her fan spiral it still seems somewhat awkward and gangly when she does it! sasha's is so free and elegant..mao's kind of hangs out more to the side

the hydrant/fan move is just so awkward to begin with only sasha can really pull it off

ks777
01-07-2012, 12:56 AM
I like Yuka Sato's spiral! Of course I love Michelle's too. As for Yuna's, yuck.

iarispiralllyof
01-07-2012, 12:59 AM
I like how Michelle exits her Charlotte spiral here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrFlbL0riDE (starting at 3:51)



WOW! that's the first time I've seen this program.

giselle23
01-07-2012, 01:00 AM
Kwan's is beautiful but Kim's makes me cringe. Yes, it covers a lot of ice but her above the boot position is just ugly. I was never a fan of her skating because of her lack of extension and stretch in body, limbs and toes.

Yu Na also has a noticeable "bump" when she changes edge. I am a fan but have to concede that her spiral is not the among the best.

UDelpairs2012
01-07-2012, 01:10 AM
Andrew Speroff has one of the best spirals out of mens figure skating...and he is a PAIR BOY!!!! It is nice to see a pair boy with a spiral that looks effortless and elegant not strained...