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Jenny
01-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Elton writes his own songs and plays an instrument. And how can you seriously compare Katy Perry to Ella Fitzgerald?

I wasn't comparing Katy Perry to Ella Fitzgerald. I was commenting on the Gaga vs the world discussion, and the notion that she is better because she writes her own songs and plays the piano. There are many very talented singers who don't, or didn't write their own songs, nor do they play any instruments.

If we are going to get so picky about what constitutes talent or "real" musicians, perhaps we need a sliding scale, based on how many instruments they play, how much of their songs can be credited to them (perhaps Elton is a lesser songwriter, because he didn't write his own lyrics?), and for that matter whether or not they can also dance when they perform? What about those who also produce their music - do they get extra points? Conductors are highly respected in the music world - more so than most orchestral musicians - and yet they compose nothing, nor do they play (publicly at least). What about those who are savvy at hiring the right people to write, produce and play with them - does that count? Because some might argue being able to spot and cultivate talent is just as important as being able to execute (ie the coach/choreographer/skater scenario)?

bek
01-03-2012, 05:09 PM
I wasn't comparing Katy Perry to Ella Fitzgerald. I was commenting on the Gaga vs the world discussion, and the notion that she is better because she writes her own songs and plays the piano. There are many very talented singers who don't, or didn't write their own songs, nor do they play any instruments.

If we are going to get so picky about what constitutes talent or "real" musicians, perhaps we need a sliding scale, based on how many instruments they play, how much of their songs can be credited to them (perhaps Elton is a lesser songwriter, because he didn't write his own lyrics?), and for that matter whether or not they can also dance when they perform? What about those who also produce their music - do they get extra points? Conductors are highly respected in the music world - more so than most orchestral musicians - and yet they compose nothing, nor do they play (publicly at least). What about those who are savvy at hiring the right people to write, produce and play with them - does that count? Because some might argue being able to spot and cultivate talent is just as important as being able to execute (ie the coach/choreographer/skater scenario)?

People are saying that Gaga is better than Madonna as a musician because Gaga can do all three better than Madonna....Madonna neither plays, writes her own music etc I wouldn't say Gaga is more talented than lets say Aguilera even if Gaga writes her own music and plays her own instrument and Aguilera doesn't. Christina has an incredible voice.

Obviously there's something to be said for people who can choose the right people; but one could argue those people should be producers. (I know people have said Britney is very good at going with new songwriters etc). It is what is but I stand by my feelings on the subject.

Look nobody's saying that the artist has to be great in all things but some form of musical talent somewhere, would be appreciated.

VIETgrlTerifa
01-03-2012, 05:11 PM
Bek, not to pick on you, but you don't seem well versed in Madonna's career which is fair because you aren't a fan. However, Madonna writes and co-writes every song that has come out since True Blue in 1986 (and wrote a big proportion of her tracks in her debut and Like a Virgin albums before that). Producers that have worked with her on her albums talk about her impeccable work ethic (from Pharrell to David Foster to William Orbit, etc.). She also does play instruments now as evidenced by her guitar playing in the past few tours and started out her career as a drum player in the late 70s, early 80s.

Madonna's musical talent suffers a bit because she started pretty late (early to mid 20s), but Madonna does work with her deficiencies. In a recent interview (ok 2008) she spoke about still playing drums (which is how she got started in the NYC music scene in the late 70s early 80s) and plays live guitar in every tour since the early 2000s. She may not have the musical prowess of many others (including Gaga who is a better singer and better musician, IMO, though I find Madonna the more interesting and even more sincere performer despite her reputation for being calculating), but she does understand musical production and plays a very active and even at times dominating role in all of her musical and live production. It's her dominant nature that makes her fail as an actor, IMO, because she can't trust anyone enough to allow herself to give an honest and vulnerable performance. Before people jump on my comment about Madonna and acting, I don't believe Madonna is capable of being a great actor, but I honestly believe she's capable better than what's she's given us for the most part.

Also, the difference between Madonna and Britney for me is that both of them do rely on production techniques and being with the right people. However, Madonna is in charge of the direction of her music for the most part and in charge of her own career. Britney does not seem to be as active in those roles. You can even see it in their performance quality. Madonna performs as if she owns the music and stage and doesn't let go of that character. Britney seems lazy and goes through the motions. Just look at how she walks on stage, there's no ownership there.

bek
01-03-2012, 05:33 PM
Bek, not to pick on you, but you don't seem well versed in Madonna's career which is fair because you aren't a fan. However, Madonna writes and co-writes every song that has come out since True Blue in 1986 (and wrote a big proportion of her tracks in her debut and Like a Virgin albums before that). Producers that have worked with her on her albums talk about her impeccable work ethic (from Pharrell to David Foster to William Orbit, etc.). She also does play instruments now as evidenced by her guitar playing in the past few tours and started out her career as a drum player in the late 70s, early 80s.

Madonna's musical talent suffers a bit because she started pretty late (early to mid 20s), but Madonna does work with her deficiencies. In a recent interview (ok 2008) she spoke about still playing drums (which is how she got started in the NYC music scene in the late 70s early 80s) and plays live guitar in every tour since the early 2000s. She may not have the musical prowess of many others (including Gaga who is a better singer and better musician, IMO, though I find Madonna the more interesting and even more sincere performer despite her reputation for being calculating), but she does understand musical production and plays a very active and even at times dominating role in all of her musical and live production. It's her dominant nature that makes her fail as an actor, IMO, because she can't trust anyone enough to allow herself to give an honest and vulnerable performance. Before people jump on my comment about Madonna and acting, I don't believe Madonna is capable of being a great actor, but I honestly believe she's capable better than what's she's given us for the most part.

Also, the difference between Madonna and Britney for me is that both of them do rely on production techniques and being with the right people. However, Madonna is in charge of the direction of her music for the most part and in charge of her own career. Britney does not seem to be as active in those roles. You can even see it in their performance quality. Madonna performs as if she owns the music and stage and doesn't let go of that character. Britney seems lazy and goes through the motions. Just look at how she walks on stage, there's no ownership there.

I actually do respect Madonna. Her voice improved tremendously when she was younger and its clear she works on her craft. I enjoy her music a lot. But I do think Gaga is more talented.

I remember a producer once saying that behind the scenes Britney makes efforts to work with new up and coming song writers etc.

michiruwater
01-03-2012, 05:38 PM
Yes, she does, which is probably why she stays on top; she has so little talent (though she used to be an absolutely phenomenal dancer), but her songs tend to sound relatively fresh as far as dance pop music is concerned. Plus I think a lot of people have a soft spot for Britney after all that she went through. Or at least I do. I'm still surprised she came out of that looking healthy and making hits again.

bek
01-03-2012, 05:42 PM
Yes, she does, which is probably why she stays on top; she has so little talent (though she used to be an absolutely phenomenal dancer), but her songs tend to sound relatively fresh as far as dance pop music is concerned. Plus I think a lot of people have a soft spot for Britney after all that she went through. Or at least I do. I'm still surprised she came out of that looking healthy and making hits again.

Britney's voice wasn't as bad (I believe) in her Disney days. I think a lot of damage was done.

michiruwater
01-03-2012, 05:44 PM
No, it wasn't. I think you're right, though I would hesitate to ever say her voice was really great. She uses a lot more autotune now than she used to have to, partially because her music is a lot more dance and electronic-oriented than before and partially, I suspect, because her voice has deteriorated.

VIETgrlTerifa
01-03-2012, 05:54 PM
^ I heard that too. She and Natalie Portman were understudies for Laura Bell Bundy for the off-Broadway musical, Ruthless!

Cheylana
01-03-2012, 05:58 PM
On the plus side, this should help push Katy's single to #1 and break the record.
This is a plus? :scream:

Cheylana
01-03-2012, 06:01 PM
Kelly Clarkson > Katy Perry, Lady Gaga and Madonna

:D
Wrong.

Kelly Clarkson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those three, especially Perry. At least Gaga and Madonna are entertaining. Perry is truly dire!
:D

bek
01-03-2012, 06:02 PM
^ I heard that too. She and Natalie Portman were understudies for Laura Bell Bundy for the off-Broadway musical, Ruthless!

Someone said that Britney was told to sing differently than her normal alto voice because it would sell more records. This is 10 year old Britney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWuK5EnXaWU

overedge
01-03-2012, 06:06 PM
She is a walking gimmick, like so many out there today. She's not as bad as Ke$ha, whom I can't stand.

I can't stand Ke$ha's songs, but I do admire her marketing ability. The "unrepentant drunk girl the morning after a bender" shtick is rather clever IMHO - that kind of girl is out there, for sure, but nobody else has been brave/cheeky enough to pick up on that vibe & demographic.

VIETgrlTerifa
01-03-2012, 06:22 PM
Wrong.

Kelly Clarkson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those three, especially Perry. At least Gaga and Madonna are entertaining. Perry is truly dire!
:D

Well, let's not forget that Clarkson sang Madonna's "Express Yourself" at her AI audition. ;)

michiruwater
01-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Which in no way negates the accuracy of Cheylana's post :P

PeterG
01-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Can't we all just get along?

:drama: