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longingfornia
01-03-2012, 08:14 PM
6.0 was a better scoring system but it's toast so i quess we should move on
cheers

gkelly
01-03-2012, 08:37 PM
Another question is, if the judges only have so much time and focus, should they pay more attention on quality of individual elements (GOE) or on PCS? I am sure judges are doing the best they can but often I see judges giving out questionable GOEs or PCS and wonder, maybe they are just too busy to take care of everything and often have to revert to reputation / impression.

The suggestion of having separate GOE and PCS judging panels actually makes sense. It doesn't have to involve extra judges. It could be just 5 judges for each of GOE and PCS instead of 10 for overall.

My understanding, from when they tested the separate panels at Nebelhorn a number of years ago, was that the judges doing only GOEs were completely bored. It only takes a few seconds to evaluate each element, and there's nothing you can do to refine your evaluation of an element that's already happened while the rest of the program is in process. They can't rewind a live program to review a takeoff edge or jump landing, and even if they had video they could rewind immediately doing so would risk missing the next live element.

What might make sense would be to have one group of judges assigned to mark GOEs and Skating Skills and Transitions, and a separate group assigned to mark the other three components by looking at the performance as a whole rather than focusing on the elements.

Aussie Willy
01-03-2012, 09:35 PM
6.0 was a better scoring system but it's toast so i quess we should move on
cheers
Please explain why because there are plenty that would disagree with you.

smarts1
01-03-2012, 11:37 PM
My understanding, from when they tested the separate panels at Nebelhorn a number of years ago, was that the judges doing only GOEs were completely bored. It only takes a few seconds to evaluate each element, and there's nothing you can do to refine your evaluation of an element that's already happened while the rest of the program is in process. They can't rewind a live program to review a takeoff edge or jump landing, and even if they had video they could rewind immediately doing so would risk missing the next live element.

What might make sense would be to have one group of judges assigned to mark GOEs and Skating Skills and Transitions, and a separate group assigned to mark the other three components by looking at the performance as a whole rather than focusing on the elements.

I don't know why people have said that. Wouldn't the panel assigning values for PCS be even boreder? The judges assigning GOEs have to at least be watching the whole performance because they have to look for each element and assign it a GOE. And how does having to assign just 5 extra values make them less bored? PCS is very political anyways, so they don't even reflect the skater accurately.

gkelly
01-04-2012, 12:12 AM
Because for PCS you need to watch the whole program -- every second counts. And you need to watch for five different general areas (each with multiple criteria).

For GOEs, you only need to watch the elements. You'd be free to turn off your brain during all the in-between stroking, even during the transition moves until they lead directly into or out of an element.

Even including the setup and the exit, each jump takes only a couple of seconds, and jumps are more than half elements in a free program. It usually would only takes one more second afterward to assign a GOE value.

Spins and step and spiral sequences take more time. But the judge can get a good idea of the general quality early on and have an idea of what the GOE will be before the element is over, so there won't be much more time needed for thinking after it.

Try it yourself.

Watch a program and score only the GOEs for elements. No rewinding. Feel free to take notes on errors and positive bullet points.

You can go back and watch replays of the elements after the fact if you weren't sure how clean a landing was, etc., and you can check on whether the tech panel made any edge calls or underrotation/downgrade calls, or identified an element differently from what you thought was executed, and adjust your GOEs accordingly. But you don't get to know the jump calls during the program itself, and you don't ever get to know the levels of the non-jump elements before you submit your scores, much less have to worry about them yourself.

Sometimes the GOE won't be obvious and you'll have to think about it for a few more seconds, maybe look up a specific rule or guideline you don't have memorized. Better to do that after the program so you don't miss the next element.

You don't have to worry about the levels at all. Just evaluate the quality of each element.

Then watch the same program or a different one and try to evaluate all the criteria for all five components, but ignore the elements.

Which time does your brain feel more engaged?

Aussie Willy
01-04-2012, 12:13 AM
PCS is very political anyways, so they don't even reflect the skater accurately.
Judging is not just about what happens internationally. IJS is used for all levels of competition, including the grass roots. I wish people would think more broadly than just international events.

smarts1
01-04-2012, 01:09 AM
Because for PCS you need to watch the whole program -- every second counts. And you need to watch for five different general areas (each with multiple criteria).

For GOEs, you only need to watch the elements. You'd be free to turn off your brain during all the in-between stroking, even during the transition moves until they lead directly into or out of an element.

Even including the setup and the exit, each jump takes only a couple of seconds, and jumps are more than half elements in a free program. It usually would only takes one more second afterward to assign a GOE value.

Spins and step and spiral sequences take more time. But the judge can get a good idea of the general quality early on and have an idea of what the GOE will be before the element is over, so there won't be much more time needed for thinking after it. Because I would kill to have their position.

Try it yourself.

Watch a program and score only the GOEs for elements. No rewinding. Feel free to take notes on errors and positive bullet points.

You can go back and watch replays of the elements after the fact if you weren't sure how clean a landing was, etc., and you can check on whether the tech panel made any edge calls or underrotation/downgrade calls, or identified an element differently from what you thought was executed, and adjust your GOEs accordingly. But you don't get to know the jump calls during the program itself, and you don't ever get to know the levels of the non-jump elements before you submit your scores, much less have to worry about them yourself.

Sometimes the GOE won't be obvious and you'll have to think about it for a few more seconds, maybe look up a specific rule or guideline you don't have memorized. Better to do that after the program so you don't miss the next element.

You don't have to worry about the levels at all. Just evaluate the quality of each element.

Then watch the same program or a different one and try to evaluate all the criteria for all five components, but ignore the elements.

Which time does your brain feel more engaged?

Well, I would think that if you made it all the way through the judging requirements to judge at a Senior B like Nebelhorn, then you would be interested in the skating between the elements as a fan of this sport. After all, the judges get the best seats at competitions for no cost. If you don't like what you're doing, you might as well quit doing it.

Aussie Willy
01-04-2012, 01:49 AM
Well, I would think that if you made it all the way through the judging requirements to judge at a Senior B like Nebelhorn, then you would be interested in the skating between the elements as a fan of this sport. After all, the judges get the best seats at competitions for no cost. If you don't like what you're doing, you might as well quit doing it.
Sorry but this is a totally ignorant comment. It is not about getting the best seats in the house. The judges are volunteers who give up their time for the sport to sit in a freezing cold ice rink, in some cases paying small fortune to do it and also using their own leave from work to attend. I would want to think that if I am going to use my own time to do something like this, I would want to make the most of it and get as much experience as possible which is what a lot of the judges attending these events do. And I would think someone would be entitled to complain that they are bored if they had spent a stack of their own money and own time to do something for the sport and felt the experience was not worthwhile.

smarts1
01-04-2012, 02:20 AM
^ Well, you're pretty much saying that same thing that I said (the getting the best seats in the house thing was just making a point that they get to watch these competitions for free and as fans of the sport)... And what about the spectators and fans who actually pay the money, leave their work, and sit in the freezing cold rink with the judges and don't get to judge? I'm sure people don't just judge because they want to use their time efficiently for the sport, but also as fans of the sport--to get to attend events that they normally wouldn't be able to.

lakewood
01-04-2012, 02:43 AM
6.0 was a better scoring system but it's toast so i quess we should move on
cheers

IMO, 6.0 didn't qualify as a judging system for FS, a complicated sport.

gkelly
01-04-2012, 03:09 AM
IMO, 6.0 didn't qualify as a judging system for FS, a complicated sport.

Well, it was originally developed as a system for judging how perfectly circles were traced on the ice, three times on each foot (1 point each = 6.0 total). Separate scores for each figure. Kinda like GOEs for each figure.

And then it was adapted as a means of keeping track of how judges ranked freeskating programs full of steps and turns and edges and glides and occasional single jumps and simple spins as highlights. The technical content was not really quantifiable in the way that multirevolution jumps are, so a qualitative, opinion-based ranking made sense with way the sport was practiced ca. 1900.

And then over the course of the next hundred years the sport of freeskating evolved to include timing to music and more difficult highlight elements and more difficult and thematic connections between the skating and the elements and the music, but the scoring system for freeskating didn't really evolve with the sport during that time. (The accounting algorithms did change several times. And the short programs, when introduced, had quantifiable deductions.)

Aussie Willy
01-04-2012, 03:21 AM
^ Well, you're pretty much saying that same thing that I said (the getting the best seats in the house thing was just making a point that they get to watch these competitions for free and as fans of the sport)... And what about the spectators and fans who actually pay the money, leave their work, and sit in the freezing cold rink with the judges and don't get to judge? I'm sure people don't just judge because they want to use their time efficiently for the sport, but also as fans of the sport--to get to attend events that they normally wouldn't be able to.
Do you actually think that people become judges just so they can get perks and privileges? Most of us fall into it because the sport is short of judges and need people who are willing to volunteer their time to do it. And for most of us, we are not actually judging international events but rather spending heaps of time judging local competitions watching little kids doing swizzles and bunny hops. Not to mention giving up many weekends throughout the year. International judging also comes after spending many years doing the above. Noone I know ever starts judging because they think that it is something they can do internationally. They may realise it after about doing it for 10 years.

Judges get the best seats in the house so they can do their job. Not to take them away from you as a spectator. If you want to get "the best seats" then become a judge yourself.

However if they don't get allocated those events they don't just go and be spectators like yourself. They judge when they are required. It is your choice to go and be a spectator and freeze your butt off.

smarts1
01-04-2012, 02:35 PM
Do you actually think that people become judges just so they can get perks and privileges? Most of us fall into it because the sport is short of judges and need people who are willing to volunteer their time to do it. And for most of us, we are not actually judging international events but rather spending heaps of time judging local competitions watching little kids doing swizzles and bunny hops. Not to mention giving up many weekends throughout the year. International judging also comes after spending many years doing the above. Noone I know ever starts judging because they think that it is something they can do internationally. They may realise it after about doing it for 10 years.

Judges get the best seats in the house so they can do their job. Not to take them away from you as a spectator. If you want to get "the best seats" then become a judge yourself.

However if they don't get allocated those events they don't just go and be spectators like yourself. They judge when they are required. It is your choice to go and be a spectator and freeze your butt off.

From what I heard, you don't necessarily have to judge competitions if you don't feel like it. (I remember there was an article about a judge at Skate America who was supposed to judge but decided not to and end up sitting in the stands.) You just need to make sure to judge the minimum number of competitions/tests necessary to maintain you judge level.

Either way, from what you make it sound like, it looks like many of these judges are sort of being forced to become judges as opposed to doing it because they really love it. Like I said before, if you don't like doing it, then why do it and waste your time?

gkelly
01-04-2012, 03:13 PM
I'm sure many judges enjoy watching skating and will watch events they're not sitting on the panel for at the same competition -- or at least select skaters they consider especially worth watching. They may even travel to be spectators at high-level competitions they're not assigned to judge (and perhaps not qualified to judge).

Of course they also have personal lives and in most cases jobs they need to take time off from to attend competitions, so they may also pass up some relatively convenient opportunities to watch skating. They can't spend every minute in ice rinks.

If they're sitting in the stands they can just sit back and enjoy like any fan. As we know, different fans engage with the skating in different ways (e.g., some watch primarily for artistry, some for technical details, some for costume snark, some for sex appeal of the skaters, etc.), and surely the same is true for off-duty judges.

But if they're sitting on the judges' stand, keeping track of the technical details and PCS requires a lot of concentration. It's a different way of engaging with the skating -- stimulating, but not relaxing.

If they have to judge elements only but not the PCS, there's less stimulation, but they can't totally turn off the analytic part of the brain and just sit back and relax either. A large part of each program would be anticipating the next element to make sure they don't miss it.

Aussie Willy
01-04-2012, 09:35 PM
From what I heard, you don't necessarily have to judge competitions if you don't feel like it. (I remember there was an article about a judge at Skate America who was supposed to judge but decided not to and end up sitting in the stands.) You just need to make sure to judge the minimum number of competitions/tests necessary to maintain you judge level.

Either way, from what you make it sound like, it looks like many of these judges are sort of being forced to become judges as opposed to doing it because they really love it. Like I said before, if you don't like doing it, then why do it and waste your time?
We have lost many judges over the years because they no longer have the passion for it. However like any sport, it survives on it's volunteer workforce. It is like the parents and skaters who run the clubs. If you have no one wanting to judge or do anything else then you have no sport. That simple really. Then it is the skaters missing out.

Most judges do it because they love it and have a real passion for the sport. My work colleagues think I am crazy to spend $1,200 to go and judge at my National Championships. But to say judges do it because they get the best seats in the house is an ignorant and uneducated comment. Unless you are involved in the sport it would be best to ask questions instead of making assumptions about things you really don't know about.