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Coco
12-28-2011, 03:42 PM
Yeah, by the time they're at the international senior elite level it's mostly too late to retool technique. Unlearning anything is really hard and unlearning muscle memory is harder than unlearning other things.

Plus, even when things start to work in practice once they're in competition they tend to go right back with what they know.

I think it's kind of awesome (in a horrible, horrible way) how the ISU has managed to turn its previous money event (ladies) into a major snoozefest that leaves most fans indifferent.

And I do blame the ISU more than any other ... entity.

One big problem with CoP (I've said since the beginning) is that it makes ladies skaters look like not very good men. The point gap between the mens and ladies fields makes that explicit.

One good thing about 6.0 was that the men and ladies had the same kinds of marks which meant that mens and ladies skating seemed like different kinds of (equally valid) undertakings. By quantifying the scores in the way it does CoP makes ladies look a lot less impressive than they are.

So, ladies skating is going the way of ladies swimming and ladies track and field as poor relations of the mens' discipline. It's kind of a shame that no one thought about this when they were designing CoP.

I don't think programs are less interesting today as compared to the late nineties because skaters are missing the lutz or the loop. The casual fan wouldn't even notice that. For me, it all boils down to the footwork. That soul sucking, anti-musical, exhausting footwork. If you take that away, and find some way to add a "wild card" element or otherwise promote originality, this discipline would bounce back.

Triple Butz
12-28-2011, 06:57 PM
I thought Zayak did the first 7 triple program. 1982 Worlds. Given there was only two triples (toe loop and sal). As someone else said though, look at the in-betweens back then and they were :yikes:.
She actually only landed six. Had she not doubled the loop it would have been seven.

floskate
12-28-2011, 07:25 PM
She actually only landed six. Had she not doubled the loop it would have been seven.

Elaine landed 7 at 1981 US Nationals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4PzBmPYpU4)
2z-3t, 3s, 3toe walley-2r (she did a true toe-walley from an inside edge take off), 3r with tiny step out, 3s, split-3t-2r, 2x-steps-3t.

Elaine also landed 6 triples at 1980 Worlds. Midori surely was the first to do the 7-triple LP as we would know it, where all triples up to and including lutz were attempted. She landed 6 up through lutz at the 1983 Prague Skate and 1984 Skate Canada and NHK. The earliest 7 triple I have seen by Midori was in the fall of 1986 at a Japanese competition. It used to be on youtube but has since been removed :(

kukkura
12-28-2011, 08:17 PM
In 2003 Europeans this program with 7 clean triples and two double axels (The same jump layout as Ito in 88) was only good enough for 5th place in the FP and 7th overall. I wonder if anyone except Slutskaya and Kostner has skated a 7 triple FS in Europeans since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWYNAULzExA

Seerek
12-28-2011, 08:25 PM
In 2003 Europeans this program with 7 clean triples and two double axels (The same jump layout as Ito in 88) was only good enough for 5th place in the FP and 7th overall. I wonder if anyone except Slutskaya and Kostner has skated a 7 triple FS in Europeans since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWYNAULzExA

Alisa Drei was the only one to land 7 triples in the LP? What about Sokolova?

As it is, perhaps Korpi and Leonova will attempt 7 triple programs at Europeans (maybe Meite as well)

kukkura
12-28-2011, 10:17 PM
Alisa Drei was the only one to land 7 triples in the LP? What about Sokolova?

As it is, perhaps Korpi and Leonova will attempt 7 triple programs at Europeans (maybe Meite as well)

I'm sure some will attempt and many have tried it, but who has actually done it after 2003 besides Kostner and Slutskaya? Meier won last time with five.

topaz
12-29-2011, 12:23 AM
A judging system gets what it selects for, not what the designers think they're selecting for.

In simpler terms - behavior that's rewarded will increase, behavior that's punished will decrease.

The jihad against under-rotation that the ISU pursued a few years ago didn't convince skaters to fully rotate their jumps (if they could to that they already would have been doing so) but to eliminate ambitious jumps, potential problem jumps and jump combinations that they weren't 100 % sure of.

Reward risk-taking and you'll get more risk-taking. Reward ugly spins and you'll get ugly spins.

Ruthlessly punish minor lapses of technique and you'll have competitors scaling back what they attempt.

Finally, an unpretty (but probable) truth: Most ladies simply don't have the muscle mass to do triples the same way men do. So they developed a set of workarounds to create the illusion that they could becuse audiences mostly prefer flawed triples to perfect doubles. Either judge mens and ladies jumping differently or be content with programs winning without many triples.

:confused:

Muscle mass to do the jumps the men do, i.e quad jumps? The women can do triple jumps and there are women who have and had nice 3lutz.

I don't think you have to judge men and women's jumping differently. That seems like a cop-out. Like a hundred years ago when it was perceived that woman didn't have the endurance and skills to run a marathon.

topaz
12-29-2011, 12:49 AM
Okay its to me that some suggest that the ladies' skaters should "attempt" all the jumps even they though they can't fully rotate the jumps and.or use the wrong edge because it makes for a more exciting competition?

And others like myself feel many of the past ladies' champions may have attempted the jumps and received credit for them but as with a large majority of the ladies' skaters today they commit the same mistakes.

Personally, I feel a skater should perform their "best" elements in a competitive program. However, CoP does reward "risk-taking", however I think they should also punish/penalize the jump if it is not rotated and the edge slightly more. Personally, if I had a skater that does a 3flip well, I would have that skater perform that jump, get +GOE than have my skater attempt a 3lutz, get a edge call and score less points.

Aussie Willy
12-29-2011, 07:10 AM
Blame the boring dull music that most skaters seem to pick these days and many of them do not know how to skate to it. And no-one has charisma nor chemistry which is what gets people sucked into a sport.

The exceptions have been recently last season when Leonova woke everyone up with her demented witch program. And this season Kostner has at least picked one of the most interesting pieces of music for her SP I have heard for a long time.

Which is indicative of the choices of music for galas of recent years by most skaters.

Loves_Shizuka
12-29-2011, 07:36 AM
Alisa Drei was the only one to land 7 triples in the LP? What about Sokolova?

As it is, perhaps Korpi and Leonova will attempt 7 triple programs at Europeans (maybe Meite as well)

If Kiira attempts - AND LANDS - seven triples in her LP this year, I will buy every single person on FSU a case of Moet :40beers:

matti
12-29-2011, 07:42 AM
If Kiira attempts AND LANDS seven triples in her LP this year, I will buy every single person on FSU a case of Moet :cheers:

Sneaky, with 2011 drawing to a close, no competitions left...empty promise... :P

t.mann
12-29-2011, 09:21 AM
Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.

Once it became "the norm," I think the majority of those 6 or 7 triple programs outside of the medalists were mostly crossovers between the jumps.

I would rather see less attempts at 6 or 7 triples if it means less crossovers. As for the lutz, I don't know when the 3z became the be all end all. I'd rather see someone with great skating skills and speed who's only repeating loops, toes or salchows then someone with minimal ice coverage and a flawed lutz, or flawed jumps generally.

This topic inevitably leads to bashing the 6.0 generation, which isn't really fair. But there's no way even skaters from '96-'02 would have been regularly getting credit for 6 or 7 triple jump programs, nor should they have been. Skaters in the 6.0 didn't have to waste (and I do mean waste!) an extra 15-20 seconds plus loads of energy on a step sequence. That has to take a lot out of the legs

Kostner! ;)
This is a reason why I enjoy Kostner more than any female skaters this season.
Her 3S, 3Lo are all quality jumps.

Kelvster
12-29-2011, 09:59 AM
In 2003 Europeans this program with 7 clean triples and two double axels (The same jump layout as Ito in 88) was only good enough for 5th place in the FP and 7th overall. I wonder if anyone except Slutskaya and Kostner has skated a 7 triple FS in Europeans since then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWYNAULzExA

this programme brings back memories!! :wuzrobbed

Alisa Drei developed into a respectable skater after being a not-so-watchable skater for many years ... she should be remembered in skating history.

Marco
12-29-2011, 11:04 AM
she should be remembered in skating history.

as being the only top Finnish skater since the 1990s who isn't breathtakingly beautiful or have excellent basics.

(I know she is Russian :P)

Cherub721
12-29-2011, 08:24 PM
If Kiira attempts - AND LANDS - seven triples in her LP this year, I will buy every single person on FSU a case of Moet :40beers:

Hell, I wouldn't even bet she lands 7 triples throughout the whole competition combined. :40beers: