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AndyWarhol
12-27-2011, 11:26 AM
Asada could have flutzed though with little penalty....

l'etoile
12-27-2011, 01:14 PM
IMO the fact that frontrunners are lacking in the field takes the most of the fault.(I don't think it's all about CoP) When Yuna had flawless 3-3s and Mao was pushing 3As endlessly, the level of fields altogether went up just to have a shot at medaling and now that none of both is existent, it's much easier to medal without any of those and it became uninspiring and just plain normal.

Look at this wonderful clip bartek posted a couple of weeks ago and be amazed how many ladies were pushing their own envelopes. How exciting was that?!
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3408257#post3408257

Ozzisk8tr
12-27-2011, 01:18 PM
I wonder if somebody posted this same sort of thing in a chat forum back when for the first time they allowed women to show their knees when they competed?

Maofan7
12-27-2011, 01:43 PM
Current position in best skater of 2011 poll with 199 votes cast:-

1. Men - 77 votes
2. Ice dance - 71 votes
3. Pairs - 32 votes
4. Ladies - 19 votes

That says it all about the current state of ladies skating - at a low ebb. Hopefully, the new Russians, Gracie Gold, and a revitalised Mao can inject new life into it.

Miruna
12-27-2011, 01:50 PM
Mao would have been multiple champion in the 6.0 system. Remember how many points she lost up until 2010-2011 season with her 3A< which had a base value of a 2A. Her 3Flutz would receive no penalty and she would probably still try 3F-3L since there were no UR. I can understand your point with Carolina, but not with Mao.

Vagabond
12-27-2011, 04:03 PM
Wait a minute, the jump content you mentioned isn't quite right. Her Oly jump content was: 2A, 3F, 3T-1T, 3S, 1LZ, 3R, 3T (hand down). No eighth jumping pass. 5 triples, 4 clean.

You're right. I was confusing her FS at Nationals that year with how she did at the Olympics. :o

However, under CoP, she'd get negative GOE for the 3T-1T (the 1T was horrible), and the 3T, leaving her with three clean jumping passes that involved triples. Her marks would also suffer because she had only one combination (and only a 3T+1T at that), and her spins and footwork wouldn't score very highly under CoP either.


I know that the 3T was slightly two-footed and the 3F very obviously so, but what was the third triple-jumping error? Did she flutz?

To me, at least, the triple lutz looks like it's off the correct edge but underrotated (3Z<, not 3<<).

smarts1
12-27-2011, 05:35 PM
A bunch of the ladies today would have faired well under 6.0 too. Namely, someone like Mao because they wouldn't have had to work on fixing her flutz under 6.0.

bardtoob
12-27-2011, 05:38 PM
A bunch of the ladies today would have faired well under 6.0 too. Namely, someone like Mao because they wouldn't have had to work on fixing her flutz under 6.0.

Mao doesn't have all the triples.

burntBREAD
12-27-2011, 05:55 PM
Mao doesn't have all the triples.

Yes, she does. Like smarts1 said, if you count her flutz as a lutz, then she has (and currently attempts) all triples.

hanca
12-27-2011, 06:28 PM
I barely watch ladies skating anymore, it just kind of bores me now. It occurred to me that the top ladies programs of today (Carolina, Mao) would not have had a chance medaling at any of the Olympics from 1992 onward.

In fact, a top 5 finish would have been improbable.

Watch Russian nationals. The majority of the girls have 3-3. I think it is much tougher competition that the whole GP season.

For me it is much more boring to watch men and dance. You always know who will win, especially in men, so why don't they just send the medal to Patrick by post and save on a hotel and travelling expenses?

Triple Butz
12-27-2011, 06:30 PM
Mao would have been multiple champion in the 6.0 system. Remember how many points she lost up until 2010-2011 season with her 3A< which had a base value of a 2A. Her 3Flutz would receive no penalty and she would probably still try 3F-3L since there were no UR. I can understand your point with Carolina, but not with Mao.

I wish people would quit asserting that flutzes and URs were completely ignored in 6.0. It's simply untrue. While it was not as heavily penalized, all you have to do is look at Sarah's Hughes' and Surya Bonaly's placements to see that the judges were not rewarding them for their technical flaws. How many times did they land more jumps than their competitors, but finish behind them? Sarah Hughes won world bronze by placing 4th in the SP and LP. In SLC, her SP placement was the result of inconsistency by the judges of all the skaters in the 4-10 range. She only won the long program because all three of the top skaters underperformed.

Skaters can/could and did/do win in both systems even with edge violations and under-rotations.

smarts1
12-27-2011, 06:48 PM
^ Surya beat everyone on the technical mark when she won those silver medals at Worlds in 93, 94, and 95. She lost on the second mark, so I don't see what you mean...

briancoogaert
12-27-2011, 07:14 PM
^ Surya beat everyone on the technical mark when she won those silver medals at Worlds in 93, 94, and 95. She lost on the second mark, so I don't see what you mean...
Marks were only used to place skaters. And the second mark was used as an overall quality of skating too (it was not an artistic mark).
Anyway, Surya had the most difficult program and didn't win.
Same with Sarah Hughes : 7 triples at 1999 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, and 2002 Olympics, but not the best marks compared to the others, because of her flutz and under-rotations. ;)

Coco
12-27-2011, 08:23 PM
Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.

Once it became "the norm," I think the majority of those 6 or 7 triple programs outside of the medalists were mostly crossovers between the jumps.

I would rather see less attempts at 6 or 7 triples if it means less crossovers. As for the lutz, I don't know when the 3z became the be all end all. I'd rather see someone with great skating skills and speed who's only repeating loops, toes or salchows then someone with minimal ice coverage and a flawed lutz, or flawed jumps generally.

This topic inevitably leads to bashing the 6.0 generation, which isn't really fair. But there's no way even skaters from '96-'02 would have been regularly getting credit for 6 or 7 triple jump programs, nor should they have been. Skaters in the 6.0 didn't have to waste (and I do mean waste!) an extra 15-20 seconds plus loads of energy on a step sequence. That has to take a lot out of the legs

briancoogaert
12-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Who was the first lady to skate a 7 triple program at worlds or Olympics? Ito? After Midori, who was the next? I think Kristi started attempting 7 triple programs in 1991, but she never accomplished one, iirc.

It must not have been super common to even attempt, because when Kwan won in '96 Lu was only attempting 6. I think Lu only attempted 7 triples in 1998.
Kristi Yamaguchi landed 7 triples at 1992 US Nationals.
Lu Chen already attempted 7 triples in 1991 and 1992 Junior Worlds, including a 3T/3T. I don't remember if she landed everything. ;)