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BmcC102
01-04-2012, 04:38 AM
Love Sasha's layback the best. Yu-Na's back bend is nice, but the leg position is very weak and the positions look very stiff. Mao's is nice; I particularly liked her 2008 version.

Slowdive
01-04-2012, 08:18 PM
Don't the American ladies generally have the prettiest laybacks? I mean everyone on here has given links to laybacks from the US ladies (minus Miki). Is there any non-US skater with a good layback position? (I think the only person I can think of was Fumie back in 02 and 03, before she changed it. Same for Miki, but then again, she barely got any arch in her layback, and now it's the most hideous thing ever).

If I remember correctly Yukina Ota has a great layback position before being injured.

ainouta
01-05-2012, 02:51 AM
If I remember correctly Yukina Ota has a great layback position before being injured.

Both Yukina (http://youtu.be/L0LvJxsA88A?t=2m10s) and Nana Takeda (http://youtu.be/THVWVnj4wPs?t=4m16s) had excellent back bend, but dropped legs - so they had great "lay-back" in their laybacks but not a classic position.

Really wish Yukina hadn't gotten injured and Nana had gotten the harder triples consistent...they were both favorites of mine.

Marco
01-05-2012, 03:57 AM
Both Yukina (http://youtu.be/L0LvJxsA88A?t=2m10s) and Nana Takeda (http://youtu.be/THVWVnj4wPs?t=4m16s) had excellent back bend, but dropped legs - so they had great "lay-back" in their laybacks but not a classic position.

Really wish Yukina hadn't gotten injured and Nana had gotten the harder triples consistent...they were both favorites of mine.

Yukina's back is out of this world-ly flexible, which also makes her for a wonderful ina bauer. Shame about her injury and jumping issues. She was so beautiful to watch and oh so promising back in 2003-4 ish. She is probably the most musical Japanese lady skater.

I am surprised Takeda couldn't get the harder triples. She had great technique and quality on her easier triples.

Both girls moved wonderfully across the ice and were a vision. Much prefer them than Ando or even Nakano. Darn the jumps.

5Ali3
01-05-2012, 09:07 AM
Also, technically IIRC the degree of back bend is less a mistake than the lack of turnout at the hip.

In general, it's the turnout of the hip that allows the back to bend; to the extent that flexibility is required for an excellent layback, it's flexibility in the hips, not the back.

A classical layback position requires a very unusual hip motion - I can't think of another element in skating that uses it. As the position sets, the pelvis needs to tilt in a motion very similar to a pelvic tilt in Pilates. If you're standing upright, your navel should tilt towards your spine and your butt towards your heels. The motion must be limited to the pelvis: nothing else should move. If you try this, you might feel some tension in your quads and knees: if you bend your knees - once again, without moving anything else - that tension should dissipate. And that's why a layback is easier when the skating knee is bent in a way that is different from other spins. Skaters who do a layback in which the pelvic is straight-up-and-down, such as Kwan, are not executing this motion, which is the foundation of the back bend and must be executed before the skater starts to lean back.

When a skater executes this pelvic tilt motion correctly, it allows for the hip to be turned out in attitude position; if the pelvic tilt motion doesn't happen, it's nearly impossible to turn the free leg into attitude and the hips will be square - or the hips are square and it's nearly impossible to turn out the free leg (chicken, egg, mmmm breakfast sandwich!). If you've never skated or danced and want to test this, try the following exercise that I just made up while using my window as a mirror, gyrating wildly, with one hand on my butt and the other somewhat south of my navel (can't wait to see my neighbor tomorrow :slinkaway ):
- stand on two feet, square towards a countertop or stable surface, with your feet under hips; holding onto the counter, lean backwards and see how far you can go
- now step your right leg back about one step, like you were taking a medium-sized stride backward; your pelvis should no longer be square, but open towards your right side. Now try leaning back again: you should be able to get significantly farther back.
- possible constraining variables: the length of your arms; your cats laughing at you; your dogs trying to lick your nose when you lean back

All the blood rushed from my head. Where was I? Oh yes: pelvic tilt facilitates attitude position facilitates backbend and balance to hold backbend. Kwan never achieved the initial pelvic tilt and thus it was impossible for her to achieve an attitude position with her free leg or bend back very much. There are two main constraints to this process: strength and understanding, with a lack of understanding seeming to be the more common condition: the strength is very easy to train once one understands the motion.

icanhazpictoricalevidence?
- Cohen (http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk291/beautiful10_album/layback.jpg): look at pelvic tilt, how far forward her hips are compared to her skating foot; notice the turnout at the hips: she's not square, but the free (right) side is significantly behind the skating (left) side
- Kate Liberman (http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reports/2001-easterns/srladies/liberman-1.jpg): This photo turned up in my google images search; she displays the pelvic tilt and attitude turn out; even though the angle of her free leg will make it appear from the front that her free leg is more straight-behind than traditional attitude, the attitude turnout can clearly be seen in her free hip
- adult skater (http://www.courtneyschafer.com/laybackspin1.jpg): another google image find; I really like this picture, because it demonstrates great pelvic tilt (look at how she's pushing her hips forward from her body) with a nice attitude free leg and backward extension to demonstrate a lovely layback position that is not easy to obtain, but more obtainable Cohen's or Czisny's for most high-level skaters
- Kwan: square hips (http://www.oocities.org/vienna/3271/Kwan-layback.jpg), some attitude turnout from the knee resulting in a nice line of the free leg, but see how flat the front of her pelvis is? There's no tilt and no attitude turnout within the hips. Here (http://coachclaire.com/images/02natssp-layback2.jpg), she has the correct motion of the hips - note how she's pushing them forward - but no attitude turnout in the free hip and she's still fairly square. However, given the position of her hips, she's demonstrating quite decent flexibility in her mid- to upper-back, which leads me to believe that she had the requisite back flexibility to do a layback, but lacked either the hip flexibility or the technique to execute the pelvic tilt motion.

(Again, for FWIW, skaters whose femurs are loosely anchored in their hip sockets tend to have easy hip rotation, making it very difficult to stand up on wonky jumps, but survive their careers without major hip injuries (Cohen, Czisny), while those whose femurs are more tightly anchored tend to have more square stances, making it more difficult to fall than to stand up on wonky jumps, and end up tearing the labrum in the hip of their landing leg from fighting the rotational force put on their hips (Kwan, Lipinski).)

I think I might leave through the back door tomorrow morning in hopes of avoiding my neighbor... :rofl:

Coco
01-05-2012, 12:55 PM
Favorite post in a long time! Loved it

kwanatic
01-05-2012, 01:13 PM
Whole post

Awesome. :D

iarispiralllyof
01-06-2012, 02:34 AM
sasha cohen, sarah hughes, peggy fleming

I think yuna's is actually hideous because the arm positions (for me) are very tacky and of course her leg. sasha and sarah's (especially 2002 oly lp) arm positions in the spiral were so graceful!

btw caroline also has a lovely classic layback spin..but for some reason the leg doesn't float as elegantly as in sasha's layback. I don't know how to describe it but when you see sasha changing between spins, in her classical layback her leg floats so gently as it's spinning

giselle23
01-06-2012, 04:09 AM
I love these layback spins.


- Janet Lynn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bDCLR1P02M&feature=player_detailpage#t=194s)

Finally! For me, Janet Lynn's layback was the best. Not only was her position perfect, she was so expressive in her movements.

iarispiralllyof
01-06-2012, 04:33 AM
can i ask if michelle's back was arched enough here? it seems fast enough (I know this isn't the classic position since her leg is lowered)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9F9OMU6MA

Twilight1
01-06-2012, 03:09 PM
Lucinda Ruh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5pXa0-DEg

I think she was the best...IMHO for laybacks. At the 1:55 min mark was her layback.

Josee Chounaird didn't have the best layback...nor did Nancy Kerrigan.

BmcC102
01-07-2012, 02:51 AM
Best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4mSZSgyd9Y&feature=player_detailpage#t=100s

Fast, centered, MUSICAL, many revolutions, no obnoxious catch foots needed, PERFECT postion and I love how Sasha times the spin to the musical phrasing SO well. She changes her positions (hands, leg, etc.) right on beat one of the measure being performed, which is where the emphasis should be in triple-meter music, IMO.

Worst:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FejGbWKQZTs&feature=player_detailpage#t=112s
The combination spin Julia did at 99 Worlds in the LP (which is not on youtube) is equally ugly and traveled horribly too.

Worst positions for a spin, period, for an elite skater at an ISU Grand Prix event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsUAJLe16RM&feature=player_detailpage#t=245s
LOL at Peggy and Dick's comments! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Coco
01-07-2012, 10:08 AM
I think Julia had a really bad back, iirc. She should have gone for a sideways leaning spin, but maybe she couldn't do that.

Nomad
01-07-2012, 04:39 PM
No discussion of bad laybacks is complete w/o Yoshie Onda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc_VeHa9Lws). Her layback is 1:32 into the program. I wish I could find a YT video of the comp where Dick Button said "Well, that's an ugly spin" and Peggy agreed. I think it might have been the 2003 GPF.

David21
01-07-2012, 06:16 PM
No discussion of bad laybacks is complete w/o Yoshie Onda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc_VeHa9Lws). Her layback is 1:32 into the program. I wish I could find a YT video of the comp where Dick Button said "Well, that's an ugly spin" and Peggy agreed. I think it might have been the 2003 GPF.


That is not a bad layback. Only when you are terribly fixated on the leg position like Dick Button is.