PDA

View Full Version : Virtue/Moir Thread #13 (mach two): S'Wonderful



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 [64] 65 66 67 68

aka_gerbil
01-28-2012, 05:52 PM
the reality is you have to serve two teams who want the same spot on the podium, one to retain and one to regain. When V&M came off the GPF they wanted changes to their programs, to find areas to pick up a point here and there. But the points they want to pick up are meant to give them an advantage over D&W. But they also have to serve D&W who will want something new to counteract the advantage they in theory gave to V&M. It's impossible to fully satisfy both teams, impossible. They can say all things are equal and it's up to the skaters to skate well but that isn't reality. It has clearly served them well up until 2010, the friendly rivalry where the order was still accepted but now it's impossible to gain that edge when you skate with your main rivals and the minute you gain "improvements" they will rightfully be asking for the same.

For me, this is really the crux of it all when it comes to the current coaching situation. I/Z can't give both V/M and D/W what they want at the same time.

In a training/coaching enviornment, I think it's good for there to be teams their pushing each other to be their best (although I've never been sold on having to compete against your closest rivals every bloody day of the world--there's a difference between pushing and competing), but when skaters/teams are seriously vying for the some podium position, it becomes a problem because, to repeat the above, the coaches can't give both what they want at the same time.

For all the talk in the past about taking it a year at a time, I do honestly think V/M are looking towards being in Sochi. I think getting out of Canton could be a very good thing for them. If anything, different coaches and choreographers bring a fresh perspective about skaters/teams, bring out different things, and reignite the spark in skaters/teams, giving them more confidence and resolve, if that makes any sense.

Just as an observer, for whatever the actual reasons are, it doesn't seem like V/M are getting what they need right now to get back to the top of the podium. Like countless others who have found themselves in that sort of situation, a coaching change may be just the ticket.

Shayii
01-28-2012, 06:00 PM
My final thoughts on the situation goes back to a conversation Tracy and Kurt had after an event but before the anticipated head to head at the GPF. One comment from Tracy stuck with me, she said sometimes it comes down to a decision made months ago (the choice of FD). The general thought was V&M had the stronger SD but the FD could come down to that decision made months earlier (the music and theme for the FD)

I really think D&W have their "masterpiece" this season. The music and concept is perfect for them and most importantly it satisfies instantly. It accentuates their speed, invites the audience to clap along, the phrasing perfect for a FD. Regardless of my personal preferences in ice dance V&Mīs FD is a grower but I don't think there is enough time or enough to do with the music and theme to turn things around. Particularly in light of all the time wasted redoing their SD.:confused: I can intellectually explain why I think it should score better in some areas but the reality is in the heat of the moment, the heat of competition and especially if D&W skate last I really believe it's a winner for them. I don't consider that doom and gloom, just coming to terms with reality.

I also wonder about the future. I think Igor and Marina are now in the same situation they were when D&W overtook B&A and when B&A overtook L&A. Nothing to do with what child they love more but the reality is you have to serve two teams who want the same spot on the podium, one to retain and one to regain. When V&M came off the GPF they wanted changes to their programs, to find areas to pick up a point here and there. But the points they want to pick up are meant to give them an advantage over D&W. But they also have to serve D&W who will want something new to counteract the advantage they in theory gave to V&M. It's impossible to fully satisfy both teams, impossible. They can say all things are equal and it's up to the skaters to skate well but that isn't reality. It has clearly served them well up until 2010, the friendly rivalry where the order was still accepted but now it's impossible to gain that edge when you skate with your main rivals and the minute you gain "improvements" they will rightfully be asking for the same.

Marbri this whole post!! You make some really great points!

Shayii
01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
But I also think that they brought life to parts of it by taking some from others.


I like how everybody has a different opinion and analysis of the situation and if you don't mind me asking Golightly which parts did they bring life to and which did they take away from (I think I can guess that one though lol)?

pani
01-28-2012, 06:30 PM
I want to add some thoughts.
I must tell, that during ECh ice dance stream on russian TV,commentator said: " Did you know, V-M lost W-P at Nationasl in SD and they are very close with W-P in FD. Maybe this is Krylova coahing talent". So i think SC did what they want - they show V-M are not at the high level, then others.
Then Zhulin words about Tobais-Stagnionas FD: " They didnt made any linking steps and transitions/ This FD (choreo) could be made during 30 munits. They made elements very good, but what about dance?"
Krylova sad the main competitiors of her teams is I-K.
Kustarova said - all talking V-M time is gone, but judges didnt show this yet.

And, if Tessa and Scott was sure from the bigining in SD and FD choice, i think they need simply enjoy to skate this programs during season, to show this joy to audience and have there moment. They had there moment in FD at SC i think. But now they start show - we are not cinfident, we made changes.

aka_gerbil
01-28-2012, 06:35 PM
I want to add some thoughts.
I must tell, that during ECh ice dance stream on russian TV,commentator said: " Did you know, V-M lost W-P at Nationasl in SD and they are very close with W-P. Maybe this is Krylova coahing talent". So i think SC did what they want - they show V-M are not at the high level, then others.
Then Zhulin words about Tobais-Stagnionas FD: " They didnt made any linking steps and transitions/ This FD (choreo) could be made during 30 munits. They made elements very good, but what about dance?"


All other issues aside, if the Russian commentators said that about the SD, they were just flat out wrong. Even though it wasn't much of a lead points-wise, V/M still won the short dance. If you are in first place, even by a tiny hair, you didn't lose. ;)

I'm not sure what T/S's FD at Euros has to do with Skate Canada, Canadian Nationals, and V/M. :confused:

pani
01-28-2012, 06:38 PM
I'm not sure what T/S's FD at Euros has to do with Skate Canada, Canadian Nationals, and V/M. :confused:

Russiam commenators all season during GP talking about V-M not so good anymore and they didnt like FD. This commentator said he like W-P FD a lot this season. Maybe thats why he check CN results and told us during break at ECh.
He taled anout Chans 300 point a lot too

sliver98
01-28-2012, 06:38 PM
krylova is a great coach would love to have tessa and scott switch to them, Shpilband coreo is awful yes he is very good at technique but the rest not so much.

Golightly
01-28-2012, 06:47 PM
I like how everybody has a different opinion and analysis of the situation and if you don't mind me asking Golightly which parts did they bring life to and which did they take away from (I think I can guess that one though lol)?

I am not against the idea of doing that lift at the end. I think it's ambitious because you have the ending a few seconds after the dismount. It did seem abrupt when they did it because they were already behind with the music due to their previous mistakes. If done right, it could boost the program quite nicely, which I believe was their intent. However, by doing that, they left the Temptation part very empty and taking in count that you have the (very boring) rhumba pattern there, you needed something extra to make it look less empty.

I also wanted to say that I think V-M have trouble adapting to this particular SD because, unlike last year, it's hard to maintain fluidity when you have that rhumba pattern constricting you. The Golden Waltz was easier to combine and even to get into from a performer's point of view: there's a friendly theme in play, there's structure and you can connect wit it. V-M are artists, they need that. The rhumba pattern lacks that theme, that connection, look at those steps, at those holds, it's all so awkward and demanding, hard to perform out of a particular context. For two people worried about dancing, this represents a challenge. Maybe if they approached their skating to achieve levels, they'd be more clinical about it (ala Davis and White) but they don't skate like that, they don't go out there and go: step 1, step 2, etc. The rhumba pattern forces you to do that. I don't know if I'm making sense, I hope you understand what I mean.

Shayii
01-28-2012, 07:01 PM
I am not against the idea of doing that lift at the end. I think it's ambitious because you have the ending a few seconds after the dismount. It did seem abrupt when they did it because they were already behind with the music due to their previous mistakes. If done right, it could boost the program quite nicely, which I believe was their intent. However, by doing that, they left the Temptation part very empty and taking in count that you have the (very boring) rhumba pattern there, you needed something extra to make it look less empty.

I also wanted to say that I think V-M have trouble adapting to this particular SD because, unlike last year, it's hard to maintain fluidity when you have that rhumba pattern constricting you. The Golden Waltz was easier to combine and even to get into from a performer's point of view: there's a friendly theme in play, there's structure and you can connect wit it. V-M are artists, they need that. The rhumba pattern lacks that theme, that connection, look at those steps, at those holds, it's all so awkward and demanding, hard to perform out of a particular context. For two people worried about dancing, this represents a challenge. Maybe if they approached their skating to achieve levels, they'd be more clinical about it (ala Davis and White) but they don't skate like that, they don't go out there and go: step 1, step 2, etc. The rhumba pattern forces you to do that. I don't know if I'm making sense, I hope you understand what I mean.

Yea you make sense, thanks for explaining :).

marbri
01-28-2012, 07:07 PM
If it's hard for them to maintain fluidity because the rhumba pattern constricts them then wouldn't it make more sense to stick them together (in the Tempation section) and be done with them in one go leaving the opening and closing sections to do what they like. I think that would give more fluidity. I do see this as a coaching/choreography issue though no matter how independent they may be they surely look to (and pay) their coaches for guidance and advice. If they didn't have a lot invested in their coaches and made independent choices and decisions I'd think it would be a lot cheaper to just coach themselves up in Canada ;)

pani
01-28-2012, 07:17 PM
If it's hard for them to maintain fluidity because the rhumba pattern constricts them then wouldn't it make more sense to stick them together (in the Tempation section) and be done with them in one go leaving the opening and closing sections to do what they like. I think that would give more fluidity. I do see this as a coaching/choreography issue though no matter how independent they may be they surely look to (and pay) their coaches for guidance and advice. If they didn't have a lot invested in their coaches and made independent choices and decisions I'd think it would be a lot cheaper to just coach themselves up in Canada ;)

They pay for coaching and choreo,
If they are independing, how Shibs have there SD this season?

Golightly
01-28-2012, 07:26 PM
That is where they were naive in thinking that skating the pattern to different musics would make the judges appreciate it more ;)

Macassar88
01-28-2012, 07:26 PM
They pay for coaching and choreo,
If they are independing, how Shibs have there SD this season?

It's actually scary how similar it is when you turn the music off.

pani
01-28-2012, 07:29 PM
That is where they were naive in thinking that skating the pattern to different musics would make the judges appreciate it more ;)

I think Zueva try to made something different and she does experiment on V-M. After she will see will judges like this or no, she will use this or no for D-W next season.

pani
01-28-2012, 07:31 PM
It's actually scary how similar it is when you turn the music off.

I said this after Finlandia Throhy - Shibs and V-M had the same SD.
Interesting, Tessa helped Shibs or no.