PDA

View Full Version : Virtue/Moir Thread #13 (mach two): S'Wonderful



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 [51] 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68

Golightly
01-23-2012, 03:10 AM
I don't think this is a coaching issue. They can't adjust to the changes well, is that Marina's fault? No. I agree that the SD needed less tweaking than the FD, but I honestly think they were aiming at revamping the SD with the hope of gaining two or even three points on DW. They are aware that latin dance and Tessa are a match made in heaven, they wanted to emphasize that. Unfortunately for them, it didn't work but let's stop to think. Aren't the linking and transitions more difficult and intricate in this new version of the SD? If they hadn't made all those mistakes, we'd be all right here saying what a genius Marina is. It's not that the changes don't work, try to imagine everything skated cleanly and you have a heck of a program. But, no, they didn't skate it cleanly so it looks awkward.

As for the deduction in the FD, I still don't get it. Was it in the new-not-so-new lift or the rotational? Ahd how do you get a Level 3 in that rotational, that's just incredible. I'll give them the step sequences, fine, not many people level 4 those, but that rotational is marvellous. The only little thing I saw was that Tessa had a little trouble grabbing her skate, but really? That costs you a level when Gilles and Poirier score 100 points? Really?

Rafter
01-23-2012, 03:18 AM
When you really think about it, it's just crazy to think that Skate Canada is giving their Olympic Champions low TES. I mean three level 3s in the FD? Really? When they got all level 4s at the GPF?? Very fishy.

flowerpower
01-23-2012, 03:39 AM
I do not know exactly where the problem lies, but when I saw G/P's scores compared to V/M's I thought, "What kind of a judging system permits this?". The unison, line, sense of rhythm, finesse, etc. that used to be so important in ice dance are not highly valued, if these relative scores are being awarded.

I also felt badly for R/H, who have improved, but see G/P blowing right past them, despite all the weaknesses you'd expect in a team (G/P) that just got together this year.

maggylyn
01-23-2012, 03:48 AM
Yes. A panel that was severe on Virtue and Moir's SD and found a previously level 4 FD rotational lift a level 3 dragged G/P to 100+? The two standards make no sense - it's all backwards trying to push a team with lesser skills and tie an anchor to a team that's great. And all this nonsense just makes it harder to have faith in what you're doing. It feels like they're getting jerked around. I don't have theories but a bad taste in my mouth.

This isn't about Marina at all. It's not Canton politics or their programs. Something's just fishy, no matter what the programs I guess is how I'm feeling.

^^ This.

Let's say V/M were scored correctly (I'm not sure about that, but ok), then what's the deal with those sky-high scores for G/P? There should be a very very big gap between them and V/M, no matter what V/M scored.

I have to agree, there's a bad taste about this. And it's related to Skate Canada politiks, I think, not to Canton.

I also agree with Subway that the SD Kiss'nCry wasn't about something wrong between Marina-Tessa-Scott. I've noticed before that when either Scott or Tessa messes up, they're very mad at themselves and the atmosphere in the Kiss'nCry is about giving them space. They never publicly coddle, do any OTT comforting, etc. It's like they all know that's not what anyone wants at that moment.

ddtpdx
01-23-2012, 03:57 AM
I do not know exactly where the problem lies, but when I saw G/P's scores compared to V/M's I thought, "What kind of a judging system permits this?". The unison, line, sense of rhythm, finesse, etc. that used to be so important in ice dance are not highly valued, if these relative scores are being awarded.

I also felt badly for R/H, who have improved, but see G/P blowing right past them, despite all the weaknesses you'd expect in a team (G/P) that just got together this year.

My theory is that this may be the direction the ISU wants ice dance to go. That is, to make the scoring align with what a casual observer would notice (speed, tricks, excitement) rather than refinement, lines, posture (which may be less obvious to the regular audience). Perhaps they don't really care about the knowledgeable viewers. How else can you explain these scores (other than politics). I think that P/I is similarly not getting enough credit for their lines and extensions. IMHO, they have the best posture and lines after V/M.

Perhaps this is the price being paid for a system that deemphasizes what usually were the strengths of the former Soviet Union ice dancers in an effort to even the playing field (or in response to displeasure from the audience, commentators, skating federations from North America).

But then again, I may be totally off base.

ichiro
01-23-2012, 04:26 AM
Count me as being peeved by the Canadians judges. I don't like where this is going... V/M underscored while G/P with all their dance flaws, rewarded with high marks. Like sliver98 stated something sounds fishy with this panel.

ddtpdx
01-23-2012, 04:42 AM
new article with comment from Slipchuk.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/01/22/virtue-moir-getting-closer-to-perfection

oh noooooo.
does this mean they are going to stick with this revised SD???

flowerpower
01-23-2012, 06:04 AM
My theory is that this may be the direction the ISU wants ice dance to go. That is, to make the scoring align with what a casual observer would notice (speed, tricks, excitement) rather than refinement, lines, posture (which may be less obvious to the regular audience). Perhaps they don't really care about the knowledgeable viewers. How else can you explain these scores (other than politics). I think that P/I is similarly not getting enough credit for their lines and extensions. IMHO, they have the best posture and lines after V/M.

Perhaps this is the price being paid for a system that deemphasizes what usually were the strengths of the former Soviet Union ice dancers in an effort to even the playing field (or in response to displeasure from the audience, commentators, skating federations from North America).

But then again, I may be totally off base.

I think you may be right.

I agree that the playing field is being leveled (e.g. use of the Rhumba as SD pattern this year, step sequences now very difficult to get level 4 even if superbly done because one tiny error can drop it to a 3, level 4 lifts achievable by many teams).

No wonder a newly-paired team can contend. If they were experienced with previous partners, a new team can probably get the levels as well as anyone. Design elements to maximize GOE (find something you can do smoothly and consistently, and make it flashy). Then, emphasize speed, be dynamic, capture the audience.

I don't think politiks at Nationals is really the problem, it's the judging system as it's evolving that's the real issue. Which brings us back to Subway's point:


I think maybe they all rightly thought Tessa's ability to actually latin dance on the ice with the right rhythm and character would count for something. Turns out in the sd dancing doesn't count for much in ice dance. Who cares about latin rhythm. Just move fast, be flashy and blow it out at the end. I think that's the message they got after the GPF. I think if Charlie had fallen they wouldn't be behind Tessa and Scott five points.

Shayii
01-23-2012, 08:27 AM
I don't think this is a coaching issue. They can't adjust to the changes well, is that Marina's fault? No. I agree that the SD needed less tweaking than the FD, but I honestly think they were aiming at revamping the SD with the hope of gaining two or even three points on DW. They are aware that latin dance and Tessa are a match made in heaven, they wanted to emphasize that. Unfortunately for them, it didn't work but let's stop to think. Aren't the linking and transitions more difficult and intricate in this new version of the SD? If they hadn't made all those mistakes, we'd be all right here saying what a genius Marina is. It's not that the changes don't work, try to imagine everything skated cleanly and you have a heck of a program. But, no, they didn't skate it cleanly so it looks awkward.


IDK Golightly even if they skate it clean, it wouldn't help the fact that the temptation part looks so empty and mujer latina too jam-packed. Subway is right something is "fishy," I'm not exactly sure what it is, but I think Tracy might and that's why she got emotional trying to speak up for them.

walei
01-23-2012, 09:13 AM
They took out the "Crazy Audrey" :( That was my favorite part of FF!

clarie
01-23-2012, 01:19 PM
I thought the judges gave them great marks. Wasn't it the tech caller who slammed them?

VarBar
01-23-2012, 01:56 PM
I thought the judges gave them great marks. Wasn't it the tech caller who slammed them?

That was my impression too. V/M's components score is higher at Nationals than at the Grand Prix Final, they received as many as 18 perfect marks of 10 and no mark is under 9.25 for Funny Face.Their total segment score would have been a bit higher than at GPF hadn't been for the 1 point deduction on the extended lift. And their GOE's are also improved on the previous competition.They would just need to work on the levels of some of the elements because they got 3 level 3's as opposed to just one level 3 at GPF. Unless the Canadian judging is not to be trusted, I don't know.:confused:

elle123
01-23-2012, 06:20 PM
I think we (as well as Virtue and Moir) need to stop worrying about the marks so much and just enjoy the skating, which is superb. I feel like their quest to squeeze out every little point has come at the expense of the dancing. Just look at the SD now.

Unfortunately, I feel like CoP doesn't nearly reward enough for some details like the lines and extension which is a real shame in dance.

sequins
01-23-2012, 06:32 PM
Wow all these theories but I have to agree I don't get the marks? Canadians is a lovefest and for Olympic champs no less you give them the shaft why? They're gonna win, unless they miss the bus why bother being so stingy? I just watched G/P about an hour ago and I don't get it either 100? Really? 100? GMAFB with that and I like Paul but come on. I could cry for V/M because as I said I think both programs were great and there just seems to be such a negativity following them this year when they looked so gloriously happy to be back at the begininng of the season we're all raining on the parade. I don't get it.

I'm sorry but I have to :lol:at the D/W for P.Chan. I don't think he really needs the help. If that's the deal they made guess they got the short end of the stick.:lol:

Editing to agree with you elle123. You are so right. I really want to just enjoy because I so love what they do. It's such a pleasure. Gold or no gold I don't wanna care anymore.

Subway
01-23-2012, 07:10 PM
I think we (as well as Virtue and Moir) need to stop worrying about the marks so much and just enjoy the skating, which is superb. I feel like their quest to squeeze out every little point has come at the expense of the dancing. Just look at the SD now.

Unfortunately, I feel like CoP doesn't nearly reward enough for some details like the lines and extension which is a real shame in dance.

I don't think Tracy even meant lines and extension. She was talking about the kind of skating skill it sakes to maintain speed, flow and depth edge while displaying Virtue and Moir's refinement and choreography. Without superior edging it's impossible to do what they do. They're not just little polishing elements, it goes straight down to the blade. Just look at Scott coming out of the twizzles, for instance. It's just amazing. It's incredible skating but he doesn't make a display of look how difficult this is.