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Visaliakid
12-17-2011, 10:23 PM
The Increase of 'Questionable' Judging Trends by Richard O'Neill (an International Coach who has had skaters at various World Championships in the past. He is currently Technical Director of the Puerto Rican Figure Skating Federation.)

Blazing Blades.com (http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/757701167/blazing-blades-guest-author-series/)

DaiKozOda
12-17-2011, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the link.

caseyedwards
12-17-2011, 10:46 PM
Some people will respond to this like it is discussed here that if you have a jump error you get deducted in the tech score and PCS is for the entirety of the program. There have to be more instructional conferences maybe on what to do with PCS if there are lots of errors. Oda PCS did go way down when he was very bad but Chan was not Oda bad and basically not really bad at all so what's the factor for Chan level errors?

kina
12-18-2011, 12:51 AM
nevermind

Japanfan
12-18-2011, 08:11 AM
How should PCS marks be reflected in a program with mistakes?

I don't think there can be any set rules for it as mistakes can affect a program differently. But I do think that in general mistakes could impact PE first and IN second. But SS, TR, CH and IN can be pretty much the same with or without mistakes - unless the skater misses some transitions, falls during linking footwork or doesn't pull off the choreography.

Looking at Chan's PCS scores for his LP at GPF I would say his 8.61 for PE was too high. Takahashi had the same and I would have given him higher than Chan.

But I don't feel Chan's mistakes affected the other PCS elements particularly. Though I do feel Takahashi was undermarked in IN, 8.75 to Chan's 8.82

olympic
12-18-2011, 03:18 PM
How was the artistic mark affected under 6.0 in a program with multiple mistakes? Would the PCS mark be affected (or not) in a similar way?

crzesk8dad
12-18-2011, 03:27 PM
Some will say that what Mr.O'Neill talks about is that judges have learned how to use IJS in the same way that they used to use 6.0 to keep some skaters down and hold others up. I'm not so sure.

I would suggest that things are not as sinister as they used to be. I would however say that there is a "halo" effect that occurs being the World Champion, or OGM, or even National champion, and that impacts or sways the judges' view of the performance.

Of course, that can work the other way as well. If the bar is set high, because one is the OGM, then one needs to perform in that manner.

JMO as an observer in the stands (or on my computer).

gkelly
12-18-2011, 03:29 PM
How was the artistic mark affected under 6.0 in a program with multiple mistakes? Would the PCS mark be affected (or not) in a similar way?

Depended on each judge's priorities. We never knew exactly how they figured in mistakes.

We still don't know, as far as PCS goes. But we know more now than under 6.0.

Ziggy
12-18-2011, 04:47 PM
This article is totally unreadable.

If the author/publisher want anybody to actually read it, it would help to have a layout that doesn't murder your eyes and doesn't look like something from the early 90s.


How should PCS marks be reflected in a program with mistakes?

It depends on whether the mistakes affected the PCS or whether they didn't.

barbk
12-18-2011, 05:01 PM
This article is totally unreadable.

If the author/publisher want anybody to actually read it, it would help to have a layout that doesn't murder your eyes and doesn't look like something from the early 90s.

This.

Were there examples of a skater falling and still getting 6.0 or 5.9 presentation marks in 6.0 GP or ISU championship competitions?

My memory is more that if a male skater, didn't have or fell on a 3 axel in the short, that they were in a fairly deep hole placement wise. And a lady without a 3 lutz typically wasn't going to get very high presentation scores no matter what else she did.

galaxygirl
12-18-2011, 05:23 PM
This article is totally unreadable.

If the author/publisher want anybody to actually read it, it would help to have a layout that doesn't murder your eyes and doesn't look like something from the early 90s.

This is why I didn't read the article.

Vash01
12-18-2011, 05:34 PM
"This new problem in judging raises concerns for the future integrity of the new judging system. This is not how things were intended 'to be'. The ISU Technical Committee needs to address this concern immediately within the Committee's current means and ability. Without clarification, judges, themselves, will get the wrong 'message'. It will open the door to potential grievances that occurred in the old 6.0 system. Failure to address these trends, will potentially cause a serious, wrongful placement result, due to total points received or denied that determine placements. Such an argument can be made in the case of the recent Grand Prix Mens final. More judging failures will further add to the public's questionable 'judging perspectives' of skating and drive viewers away. The ISU Technical Committee needs to address this before a World Championship when the whole world is watching closely. Now is the time for the ISU to enforce what is clearly declared 'right' vs. what is 'wrong'. I trust the Technical Committee will do whats become 'necessary' to strengthen the judging system with renewed consistency of grading scores."

IMO this is the key paragraph of the article, and the key word is 'immediately'. I am glad to see someone raising this question, and saying it will affect the long term future of the sport. There were some rumblings during the GP series last year, but this year it came to the forefront. There is not a big difference between the 6.0 and IJS judging, except that in the latter you see numbers, so you can argue the results more easily.

The 6.0 had its flaws but to for anyone to imply that the 6.0 system always or often crowned the wrong champions is further from the truth. It did put more emphasis on the jumps than the IJS, but skaters and coaches knew the rules. In the IJS also they know the rules but I don't see them being free of biases - national or otherwise.

To some extent FS is always going to have some subjectivity and human factors. I believe that the ISU needs to address the problems immediately after a competition, and not months afterwards, if they are serious about making the system better. If this trend continues, it's going to turn off even more people than in the past. A lot of us are already frustrated by what happened in the mens competition, and it could happen in other disciplines if the judges predetermine the champion.

As a sidenote, it's happened in another sport- the NBA- and the sport is losing its popularity, particularly small markets. NBA has been one of the most popular sports leagues in the USA (second to the NFL, perhaps), but fans of the sport are frustrated by very questionable officiating and the league supporting that. If it can happen in basketball, it will certainly affect FS, which is already very limited in popularity.

Visaliakid
12-18-2011, 06:37 PM
Thanks Vash01 for posting the article in it's entirety from my blog for those who are visually challenged. So far the article has been viewed by some 1750 visitors and growing. BTW the text can be enlarged using your browser View tab Zoom In (Text Only) feature.

bek
12-18-2011, 07:03 PM
How was the artistic mark affected under 6.0 in a program with multiple mistakes? Would the PCS mark be affected (or not) in a similar way?

I think the understanding is it could but didn't always. This being said these are two different scenarios. Under 6.0 the elements score and the artistic score had the same value, and skaters were ranked against each other. Under IJS, PCS aren't capped and so the top skaters are guaranteed a huge lead over unknown/other skaters. Also its hard to see big time mistakes being overly affected in the TES mark, when people can fall on quads and still rack up enough points.

IF IJS is to be taken seriously a huge portion of the mark cannot be set in stone and has to be reflective of how the skaters actually skate.

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 07:16 PM
Looking at Chan's PCS scores for his LP at GPF I would say his 8.61 for PE was too high. Takahashi had the same and I would have given him higher than Chan.


How would you have rated each of these bullet points for the P/E component for each of them at GPF, when quality is applied to the percentage of the program as a whole? I've left out the points that don't apply to singles:

Performance/Execution
Definition: is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.

Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery.

Criteria:

Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement
In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.

Carriage
Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.

Style and individuality/personality
Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

Clarity of movement
Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement.

Variety and contrast
Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body parts as well as the use of contrast.

Projection
The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.