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View Full Version : Zhulin: The sky high marks Davis/White and Virtue/Moir receive are scary



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Cherub721
12-17-2011, 03:40 AM
I am not found of all of D/W programs either but for me their scores in the era of COP aren’t as questionable as all 6.0 N/K got for their “Pink panther”. It is not my place to discussed it and I liked this program and Zhulin’s work but I am still puzzled how EX passed as FD received greater scores than G/P “Memorial” or A/P “Carmina Burana” for example who were competing during the same scoring system.

It's easy to explain. They competed Pink Panther during 2003-04, when CoP was used during the GP but 6.0 was used at Euros and Worlds. It was the last time 6.0 would ever be used internationally, and the judges were throwing them out like candy. N&K also skated last (after two other FDs received 6.0s). Pink Panther sooooo didn't deserve them, but all of the world champions got 6.0s that year. The scores are here: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2004/ Very interesting to look at some of them... N&K and DenSta receiving 5.4s to win the CD... I can't imagine D&W or V&M scoring that low if we had 6.0 right now, but we'll never know.

DORISPULASKI
12-17-2011, 03:49 PM
Easy to imagine. CD's like figures, used to be graded strictly to a Real Standard. If D&W and V&M missed the back outside edge following the chocktaw in all iterations, as D&W did at SA, and V&M did at TEB (but not the GPF), that grade would be rather generous.

oleada
12-17-2011, 04:00 PM
I totally agree as well. IMO, D/W don't look like they are dancing. They look like they are doing an athletic exercise. Good speed, yes, but it doesn't feel like dancing to me. Especially the SD. I'm not a huge fan of V/M but they trump D/W in connection, lines, musicality.

I have pretty much the same opinion as allezfred in regards to ice dance. I want to see something interesting and these two teams do not bring it.

Vash01
12-17-2011, 05:12 PM
I totally agree as well. IMO, D/W don't look like they are dancing. They look like they are doing an athletic exercise. Good speed, yes, but it doesn't feel like dancing to me. Especially the SD. I'm not a huge fan of V/M but they trump D/W in connection, lines, musicality.

I have pretty much the same opinion as allezfred in regards to ice dance. I want to see something interesting and these two teams do not bring it.

Could it be because of the new rules and the 'uplifting music' requirement? The skaters/dancers are somewhat limited in what they can do.

kwanfan1818
12-17-2011, 05:44 PM
There is no "uplifting music" requirement. That was proposed and never passed.

Cherub721
12-17-2011, 05:51 PM
I totally agree as well. IMO, D/W don't look like they are dancing. They look like they are doing an athletic exercise.

This. I always felt the same about B&A. A lot of people thought B&A had "good ODs" but to me they were more like short programs. They almost never had the ballroom character right, but they were entertaining dances with good elements and good speed set to uplifting music like Libiamo or J Lo. I see exactly the same with D&W.

AragornElessar
12-17-2011, 08:48 PM
ITA with everything Zhulin said. I'm also baffled by the super high marks received by D&W. I enjoy watching them a lot but no way are they that much better than the rest of the field. Zhulin nailed it when he said V&M have a connection and D&W don't. Face it, Latin dancing is all about sex. It's not cutesy shimmying to J-Lo, it's supposed to be sensual, smoldering, seductive. How D&W propose to embody any of that when they barely look each other in the eye, I don't know. Their body language basically screams "NO SIR WE ARE NOT NOR WILL WE EVER BE SEXUALLY INVOLVED!!!" This is definitely something they need to work on.

For me I think that's *part* of the problem I've got w/them. I really like them and I really like their skating and what they bring to Ice Dance. However, I want to really love them and I really want to love their skating and what they bring to Ice Dance. I did used to think it might have been they just didn't "translate" well over the TV to me, but then I saw them at Skate Canada in Ottawa in 08 and they blew me away. In fact, I came home gushing about them and kept on gushing for the rest of the season, but I have suspicions about that, that I'll get to.


I don't even think that the eye contact/ connection is what makes V/M superior to D/W. Its the edge quality, position and line, unison. What D/W possess is great speed, but if they had to maintain the edges, be aware of position and line as do V/M would they really be as fast? I find that these traits should be held utmost especially for ice dance, but it isn't.

And this is what I think the problem is. Meryl and Charlie have amazing speed and also great power as well, but the programs they've been given the last couple of years IMO don't capitalize as much on those strengths they posess. Instead they've been given material that while good, in the hands of a different couple, would be amazing because Meryl and Charlie aren't that versitile IMO. Which brings us back to SC 08...

To me, their Samson and Delilah FD was exactly the kind of stuff they should be doing. That music calls for intensity, power and speed. All of the things that sets Meryl and Charlie apart from the other teams out there and it really brought out the best in them. I think POTO was supposed to follow up on that, but instead it never did reach the same level as S&D did and always felt rather like a very big step backwards in development for Meryl and Charlie IMO.

I've always been puzzled by why I couldn't get past this "block" I've had w/them between just liking them a lot and loving their skating. Until Kurt Browning mentioned last weekend how he's always amazed by the power in their skating. That was an "Ah ha!!" moment for me, as I realized they always do have this intensity in their skating regardless of the music. Now if they're skating w/all this power and intensity, trying to interpret something that calls for a light touch will just never work for them.

All of that of course is JMO, but an awful lot of what Zhulin said made sense to me. Are Meryl and Charlie that good? Yes, they are. I just think they could be sooo much better if they were given stuff that played to their strengths.

caseyedwards
12-17-2011, 10:28 PM
Too much speed. Too much speed that goes against interpretation and getting connection between the people.

Verbalgirl77
12-17-2011, 11:41 PM
To me, their Samson and Delilah FD was exactly the kind of stuff they should be doing. That music calls for intensity, power and speed. All of the things that sets Meryl and Charlie apart from the other teams out there and it really brought out the best in them. I think POTO was supposed to follow up on that, but instead it never did reach the same level as S&D did and always felt rather like a very big step backwards in development for Meryl and Charlie IMO.


Are Meryl and Charlie that good? Yes, they are. I just think they could be sooo much better if they were given stuff that played to their strengths.

ITA with this. I love D/W but their programs tend to be their biggest problem for me. I still can't believe they got stuck with that POTO FD in an Olympic year. Ugh.

Proustable
12-18-2011, 01:05 AM
There is no "uplifting music" requirement. That was proposed and never passed.

Isn't there a penalty, though, if the music is not of "uplifting effect?"

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 01:45 AM
Isn't there a penalty, though, if the music is not of "uplifting effect?"
You're right -- it's in Communication 1677, which was amended in Communication 1686 to be a specific penalty off the top, not deducted from Interpretation/Timing.

ETA: More than half the judges and the referee have to agree that this is a deduction, from the "Who Is Responsible?" document:


Referee together with the Judges Panel decides on violations of music requirements. The corresponding deductions are applied according to the opinion of the majority of the Panel which includes all the Judges and the Referee and no deduction in case of a 50:50 split vote). The Judges and Referee will press a button on their screen to apply the above mentioned deductions.

Mevrouw
12-18-2011, 01:49 AM
I'm puzzled as to why people think that 10 is perfect or the highest possible. I thought there was no equivalent to the old "6.0" and that the score could go as high as the judges want to award. I've been waiting for 11s to break out. But maybe I have misunderstood?

The article cited in this thread (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81660) says 10 is "perfect" so it couldn't go higher..

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 02:15 AM
10 is the top of the scale, and if the programs matches the criteria for a 10, it's legit to give a 10. A search on the Program Components Overview document and the Handbook for Referees and Judges brought up nada for "perfect".

Susan M
12-18-2011, 02:39 AM
10 is the top of the scale, and if the programs matches the criteria for a 10, it's legit to give a 10. A search on the Program Components Overview document and the Handbook for Referees and Judges brought up nada for "perfect".
Good point. The guidelines for scoring PCS give a list of criteria under each component for the range 10.0 to 9.0. They use words like deep, elegant, seamless, effortless, creative, but never perfect. They also don't give separate direction for 10.0 vs marks in the 9 range.

There are a few places where the communication requires some aspect to be 100% correct (linking of pattern dance with rest of the dance (SD), expression of rhythms, timing, unified choreo) but those requirements kick in sometimes for marks as low as 5.0.

literaryfreak
12-18-2011, 04:21 PM
As someone pointed out in the FD thread, when judges are giving out high 7s/low 8s to start in the senior ice dance competition, it's not surprising they need to resort to 10s by the end.

It's a general trend.