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View Full Version : Zhulin: The sky high marks Davis/White and Virtue/Moir receive are scary



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overedge
12-15-2011, 05:40 AM
Coming from you I take that as a compliment. :lol: If you think the Americans and Canadians are not pushing their top skaters behind the scenes with many of the astronomical scores they get these days (not that it is neccessarily a bad thing, other countries have done it for years) then you are even dumber than I already thought you were.

This from someone who seriously expects everyone to believe their theory that there was some huge :sekret: North American media conspiracy to portray the officials from every non-American skating federation as :EVILLE: lobbyists and competition fixers. Yarite.

Coco
12-15-2011, 06:01 AM
How come when Marina Anissina and Zhulin bitch about Ice Dance under COP, the general tone of the thread is appreciative and approval, but when Janet Lynn makes similar arguments about COP in general, she's a bitter American who's only angry that American ladies aren't dominating?

No, I haven't compared the posters to see if individual posters are being hypocritical, but I find the different tone of the threads quite interesting. Though to be fair, this thread is only 2 pages long. I'm sure the tone will shift a few times, ;).

Anyway, I find Davis/White to be a hundred times more interesting than Navka/Kostomorov despite the fact that Davis/White aren't finished ice dancers the way Navka was.


Well, he's criticizing the application of COP while Lynn and Bianchetti seem to attack the system itself.

That's the difference that jumps out at me. I tend to avoid threads with comments from anti-COP types in the skating world, though.

PS - and he's hot, too. He's getting Korpi points.

taf2002
12-15-2011, 06:01 AM
Anyway, I find Davis/White to be a hundred times more interesting than Navka/Kostomorov despite the fact that Davis/White aren't finished ice dancers the way Navka was.

I found N/K interesting to watch but I thought they were pretty overrated, Kostomorov especially. She was such a diva, maybe it was hard for the judges to separate that from the actual skating.

I think Zhulin sounds a little naive. COP killed the other disciplines, why does he think ice dancing is exempt from that? Skating is now a numbers game & things like magic don't count. As for connection, did Grishuk & Platov ever acknowledge each other on the ice? If so, I never saw it.

casken
12-15-2011, 06:10 AM
I'm just curious - in your opinion do you think it's the coach or do you think it's them as skaters? Do you think her other couples [M/K, S/Z] share their problems?

Supposedly they're hard workers and don't give their coaches problems, so I just don't know what happened to them, or her specifically. Looking back when they first started competing at Worlds in 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8KEvlQreWI&t=0m50s), she's matured and filled out a bit since then, so that might be hindering them.

I do remember in 2010 a commentator said their FD was dedicated to their recently deceased choreographer. Maybe she played a big role in the development of their style, and once she passed on B&S lost their way? Even though their 2010 FD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fzCAvyQWmM&t=0m39s)wasn't exactly exciting or original, the choreography looked more elegant and effortless than what they're doing today, as did the elements.

Right now though, their current packaging and music choices are totally on the coach's head though, and they aren't working as they should. They also need to address their level issues, and need snappier and more effortless footwork and twizzle sequences to compete with the Shpilband teams.

I just really feel like they need a new set of eyes to look over them.


Do you think her other couples [M/K, S/Z] share their problems?I don't really watch juniors a lot, but I've never found M&K to be that great from what I've seen of them. S&Z seem like they have a good base, but so did B&S at that time. I noticed that does she does the footwork sequences very similar Bobrova.


On a less serious note I find it a little :lol: that Zhulin gave V&M the nod for doing a good latin SD considering how some (who revere Zhulin) have claimed it is a disaster and not in the least bit latin :D

Well the Latin OD Zhulin put together for N&K sucked, so I'm not surprised he likes it. :P

marbri
12-15-2011, 06:15 AM
How come when Marina Anissina and Zhulin bitch about Ice Dance under COP, the general tone of the thread is appreciative and approval, but when Janet Lynn makes similar arguments about COP in general, she's a bitter American who's only angry that American ladies aren't dominating?

No, I haven't compared the posters to see if individual posters are being hypocritical, but I find the different tone of the threads quite interesting. Though to be fair, this thread is only 2 pages long. I'm sure the tone will shift a few times, ;).

Anyway, I find Davis/White to be a hundred times more interesting than Navka/Kostomorov despite the fact that Davis/White aren't finished ice dancers the way Navka was.

I never read the Janet Lynn thread but there was definitely some heat in the Marina thread.

Having said that I didn't read this Zhulin interview as him bitching about ice dance under CoP.

marbri
12-15-2011, 06:17 AM
Well the Latin OD Zhulin put together for N&K sucked, so I'm not surprised he likes it. :P

Ah but what I'm :lol: at will be understood by those who thought Navka could show these kids today how to skate a latin SD.

Carmen Ovsiannikov
12-15-2011, 06:53 AM
....It is quite obvious the USFSA has learnt the political game these days, as have the Canadians as the scores of Chan and to a lesser degree Virtue & Moir are showing. So much for only the big bag Russian and European empire knowing how to politik which was the myth for years perpetuated by the North American media. In fact the Russian fed. today pales in comparision to the Canadian and American versions as far as politiking goes. Otherwise Volosozhar & Trankov would have won the GP final.

:respec:

Well, if judgejudy is on crack then she must have shared it with me. :P Some of us have discussed this before.

This also ties in to the issues some of us have with the commentary of Judy Blumberg and even at times Susie Wynne and Terry Gannon. All three are and have been extremely effective at explaining the sport of icedance but it becomes clear (at least to me) that when the U.S. (and even Canadian in the case of the B&K years) federations have teams who are being promoted the commentary becomes biased. Any mistakes on the part of those who are ahead of the favorites or might threaten the favorites are amplified and any positive qualities are glossed over in a passive agressive manner.

Even DelShoes a team who were notoriously not a favorite of the judges started being accused of benefitting from padded marks during the 07/08 season when they were competitive with a rising V&M.

There have been valid judging complaints in the past, but in their reluctance to admit that for years the U.S. dancers just weren't good enough to compete with the top Russian and European dancers, the commentators made it seem as if the only reason American dancers hadn't medaled post B&S in 1985 was because they were unfairly kept off the podium.

If the U.S. hasn't played the political game more in the past it wasn't because they were too :saint: to do so. More like the teams weren't strong enough for the U.S. to push them past the top dancers. The U.S. has much more motivation these days to politick. Especially since post Vancouver the field was severely depleted. For the first time in years, there were no top Russian or European dancers ready to move forward and take over from the retiring team. Only P&B could be considered a top team but the judges don't seem to hold them in high regard inspite of their improvements and their own mistakes don't help.

Some of the replies to judgejudy's post only serves to reinforce that the U.S. has successfully managed to convince the public that the U.S. is squeaky clean when it comes to backstage dealings. Heck like other federations, the USFS also has the issue of political manuvering domestically.

I'm team V&M when it comes to the debate of which of the NA teams is best but I admit to thinking that both V&M's and D&W's marks have been huge. Zhulin is right about the dancers and about the champions in general.

Speaking of the 07/08 season, the winning teams (and we are talking about teams like DenStavs, DelShoes and D&L) were posting winning scores ranging anywhere from 95 to 98 points. Fastforward to the Vancouver Olympics and the top two teams were more than 30 points higher than the 4th place team. Before then I doubt that even Albena and Maxim were 30 points higher than the team who finished 10th in 2007.

I wondered outloud in the V&M thread whether the judges were trying to keep the crowds (such as they are) interested by constantly handing out record setting marks. Perhaps to make up for the lack of the 6.0 moments.

I still don't get the elevation of D&W especially by some fans. I can understand if someone says they enjoy them and they are althletic, fast and exciting. If the judges were placing them equal to or ahead of V&M based on their TES marks then I might be less likely to find fault.

But I'm seeing them compared to and said to be better than some of the best of the past icedance champions. And apparently everything they skate to (even if it's the icedance equivilant of Evan Lysacek's Olympic LP) is a masterpiece. They have several qualities (some see as faults) that have been roundly slammed in various other teams through the years but those things are ignored of spun as being a positive. :confused:

The end of the season and what happens after ought to be interesting.

MacMadame
12-15-2011, 07:54 AM
I totally agree with everything he said.
Davis White and Shibs are overmarked, and Weaver Poje are underappreciated.

If you think Davis & White are overmarked, then you don't totally agree with everything he said because he said they deserve their marks. ;)

MarieM
12-15-2011, 08:18 AM
He said they deserve their TES marks. He has another opinion about their PCS if you read carefully what he states...

MacMadame
12-15-2011, 08:24 AM
Maybe he's trying to imply that but he explicitly states that D/W and V/M deserve their marks and are heads and tails above the other teams.

VarBar
12-15-2011, 08:48 AM
Virtue & Moir's marks are semi fine, a bit too high at times but mostly within reason. However both Davis & White and the Shibutanis have been grossly overscored, especialy on PCS, for well over a year now.

For two teams - I am referring to V/M and D/W - who already outdanced Anissina/Peizerat, Navka/Kostomarov or Delobel/Shonfelder, as you yourself posted a few months ago in another thread, I wouldn't say that for instance V/M's winning score of 224,43 at the 2010 Worlds or D/W's score of 223,03 at the same competition were too high if I had to compare them with N/K's 227,81 and Belbin/Agosto's 221,26 at the 2005 Worlds. What am I missing here?:confused:


I know it was a different system but Torvill & Dean in their primes were not even given such a huge gap on their competitors in scores

Maybe not but did anyone have a doubt in their minds T/D would not win year after year after year until retirement?


It seems like Chan they could make about 5 major mistakes or more and still beat all the others, although fortunately unlike Chan they dont ever do so (which although I am grateful to them for not doing so, almost makes it even more boring as atleast with Chan there is some wonder if he can possibly F up so bad that he might lose, which doesnt exist with the top 2 dance teams and their guaranteed gold and silver at each event

You lost me.:rolleyes:

allezfred
12-15-2011, 10:27 AM
How come when Marina Anissina and Zhulin bitch about Ice Dance under COP, the general tone of the thread is appreciative and approval, but when Janet Lynn makes similar arguments about COP in general, she's a bitter American who's only angry that American ladies aren't dominating?

Because Anissina and Zhulin actually have been involved in ice dance in the past ten years (Zhulin as a coach and Anissina as a competitor and choreographer) whereas Lynn has not and does not appear to know anything about CoP except for the fact she doesn't like it. And Anissina was criticised by several people, including me, for using the term "Americanisation".


Anyway, I find Davis/White to be a hundred times more interesting than Navka/Kostomorov despite the fact that Davis/White aren't finished ice dancers the way Navka was.


I found N/K interesting to watch but I thought they were pretty overrated, Kostomorov especially. She was such a diva, maybe it was hard for the judges to separate that from the actual skating.


As for connection, did Grishuk & Platov ever acknowledge each other on the ice? If so, I never saw it.

Each to their own I suppose. Navka/Kostomarov and Grishuk/Platov are two of my favourite all-time ice dance teams and have the qualities I like in ice dancing.


Ah but what I'm :lol: at will be understood by those who thought Navka could show these kids today how to skate a latin SD.

Navka could absolutely teach them how to skate Latin and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpfkvNHac6g) should be compulsory viewing. Show any expert in Latin dance this and the SDs of the Top 3 teams from Worlds last season have this season and I know which one they'll pick as having more Latin character.

A clue: it won't be any of the teams coached by Zoueva/Shpilband. ;)

I think Zhulin touched on something else about how some people continue to say that Virtue/Moir and Davis/White are equal as teams. I find this to be an absolute myth. Virtue/Moir are by far the superior team and Davis/White should be marked much closer to the rest of the field than they are to Virtue/Moir.

care bear
12-15-2011, 12:44 PM
I have read it in Russian. Do not agree at all, some sentences sound very rude, but it is interesting to know about lacking of work etic of I/K. It is a pity.

fsfan22
12-15-2011, 01:51 PM
PS - and he's hot, too. He's getting Korpi points.

HAHAHA love this!

kwanfan1818
12-15-2011, 02:31 PM
I wondered outloud in the V&M thread whether the judges were trying to keep the crowds (such as they are) interested by constantly handing out record setting marks. Perhaps to make up for the lack of the 6.0 moments.

If this is driven by the crowds, the only thing the crowds see are "Season's Best" and the occasional "World Record". The crowds don't give a rat's ass if the number is 98.1 or 150.6. The crowd isn't seeing the 10's.


For two teams - I am referring to V/M and D/W - who already outdanced Anissina/Peizerat, Navka/Kostomarov or Delobel/Shonfelder, as you yourself posted a few months ago in another thread, I wouldn't say that for instance V/M's winning score of 224,43 at the 2010 Worlds or D/W's score of 223,03 at the same competition were too high if I had to compare them with N/K's 227,81 and Belbin/Agosto's 221,26 at the 2005 Worlds. What am I missing here?:confused:
There were three phases and three marks until last season, all cumulative.