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B.Cooper
12-12-2011, 07:35 PM
Interesting link that Sonia Bianchetti shared this morning on her FB page.....the concept of rewarding failure. Food for thought.

http://savefigureskating.blogspot.com/2011/12/rewarding-failure-diminishes-sport-if.html?showComment=1323705688434#c293786609713670 8694

Louis
12-12-2011, 08:02 PM
I really struggle with this because there has to be incentive for skaters to try hard jumps, or we may as well go back to 1987 (hell, 1982) the way we have with the senior ladies.

I think gkelly's solution of widening the GOE on quads (and perhaps lowering the base value) is the best one I've seen yet.

Make it so that a +1 or +2 quad gets a ton of points, but that a -2 or -3 rotated quad is worth about what a clean triple salchow or (at maximum) loop would receive.

PDilemma
12-12-2011, 08:49 PM
Question...I don't know that much about gymnastics' "new" scoring system. I do know that routines have a base value determined by difficulty. I also know that I have yet to see a gymnast perform a routine with a high base value, land on her ass on the mat and then beat everyone who performs cleanly on that event. How is their system accomplishing that? And why can't the ISU look at what they are doing?

Gymnastics is probably the most comparable sport in many respects.

Skittl1321
12-12-2011, 09:30 PM
I don't understand why the deduction for a fall is a single number for all levels and disciplines. I realize there is also the negative GOE penalty, but a senior man's fall has almost no impact. What is 1 point, when their programs are worth SO many. By contrast- a novice ladies fall- it really impacts the score...

I think that a fully rotated quad attempt should be rewarded by having a high base value (but negative GOE)- but obviously a fully rotated, landed quad should be worth much more. If a clean triple lutz is worth more points, we aren't going to see any quads. There is an uproar anytime someone wins without a quad. Only awarding clean quads isn't incentive enough for men- they aren't clean often enough (and they weren't during the 6.0 quad era either). A fully rotated, but fallen quad needs to be worth at least as much as a triple flip, otherwise, they are just going to do triple flips.

If they aren't rotated- they shouldn't be worth much at all.

Doubletoe
12-12-2011, 09:39 PM
Due to the high base values of the jumps at the World Senior level, falls on fully rotated jumps will only have a significant impact if they impact the PCS marks. Since each fall interrupts the performance and takes away from its overall quality, the Performance & Execution score should absolutely go down, and it is arguable that the Transitions, Skating Skills and Interpretation scores should also go down. That does not appear to have happened at the GPF with Chan.

gkelly
12-12-2011, 10:24 PM
Obviously a skater who can rotate quads and all the triples and land most of them cleanly, and inspire judges to give him high GOEs on successful elements and extremely high PCS, can afford a couple of falls better than a skater with easier jumps, frequent underrotation, weaker GOEs, and/or weaker PCS.

There's much dismay that a skater can win with multiple mistakes, even multiple falls, against cleaner performances that may also be comparable or better in some other way that fans care about (e.g., musical expression).

But other skaters who compete under the same rules without all those advantages already won't place as well with the same number of mistakes.

How can the rules, or the way the judges are using the rules, be adjusted to prevent the best skater with multiple mistakes from beating an almost-as-good skater with no, few, or only minor mistakes.

Is the problem with falls specifically? With blatant errors often losing fewer points than subtler errors invisible to casual viewers?

So what's the solution? Keep the 1.0 fall deduction for all levels, and just encourage ISU-level judges to penalize blatant errors more harshly in Performance/Execution and any other applicable component as well as the GOEs?

Raise the fall deduction for seniors only, more for senior men than for pairs and ladies? So, e.g., all senior men would get 2.0 for a fall even if they're weak senior men with few triples and little chance of getting to the final round at Worlds? And maybe 1.5 deduction per fall for senior ladies and pairs, and for junior men?

Raise the values of the negative GOEs for the hardest jumps so that falling on, or even just stepping out of, a rotated quad or triple axel is worth less than landing a good triple jump?


Is there a pattern of messier programs beating clean programs by skaters of almost comparable ability at competitions below the level of the ISU championships and GP? Does anyone care what happens at those lower levels besides the skaters themselves?

Should the rules be different for the highest level competitions that are televised and attract all levels of fans than for junior and lesser senior events where only insiders and a few of us diehards even know they exist or care who wins?

Suppose a young skater with quads (or 7-8 triples for a lady) and strong basic skills, or one otherwise having a breakout season, shows up at Worlds with little international experience, or an experienced skater returns from a year or more off, and has to skate the qual rounds. Will it be acceptable for that skater to fall three times and win the qual round ahead of clean easier performance by a skater of lesser ability? Who decides how much "lesser" is enough to make that acceptable?

I.e., should the rules try to manipulate the kinds of outcomes that are or are not acceptable? Should the rules be different for the top televised skaters and the rank-and-file senior skaters?

I don't know what the answer is, but I think we need to define the question first. Do we want to encourage risk? Do we want to encourage clean programs? Is the problem, however it is defined, pervasive throughout the whole sport, or only evident with one or two skaters at a time at the top of their discipline(s)? Would the solution for one discipline backfire if applied in another discipline or at lower levels?

julieann
12-12-2011, 10:34 PM
I disagree with her on many levels, not sure where to start. Chan completing a beautiful quad and fully rotating the triple and only falling when he swung open his free leg and hit the boards (BTW, I laugh every time I see it!) doesn't mean you need to throw away the baby with the bath water. He got mostly -3 and -2 and two -1. PLUS the -1.00 mandatory deduction.

He put his hand down on the landing of the 3A, after great hight, great rotation and was given 7.50. Abbott did a beautiful one and got 10.36. So Chan's hand cost him -2.86...seems fair to me.

Abbott was only 1.11 points behind Chan in PCS but PC base value is 41.60 and JA is only 36.10. Many elements were not only a lower base value but executed poorly.

Chan
4T+3T 14.40
3A 8.50
3Lz 6.00

= 28.90

Abbott
3Lz+3T 10.10
3A 8.50
3F 5.30

= 23.90

On jumps alone! Not including the rest of the elements. I really don't see how that's to far off. Should falling into the boards be an automatic DQ? Maybe....

This 3A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2Hw6ZoXGsNc#t=36s) should get a zero...but should this 4STh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iIdqjryYbQI#t=72s)? No way!


Surely skaters must be rewarded in some way for rotating four times in the air, right? Wrong. Are gymnasts awarded gold medals if they donít stick a landing, never mind if they land flat on the mat or step out of bounds? Not funny. Then why should skaters be held to different standards?

I take it she doesn't watch a lot of gymnastics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eBIeKtC8VY&feature=player_detailpage#t=86s)? They do give first place to girls who have form breaks and step out on the landing.

She keeps bringing up "under the 6.0" give it up already we are past it, move on! She keep using the word failure as if the jump was never attempted. It's it pretty tough to pick the ice, launch yourself high into the air rotate 3 or 4 times and land on one blade, now if you should happen to need hand assistance or you fall on your butt after your skate touches the ice, should EVERYTHING the skater does prior be dis-counted? I don't think so.

Should the COP be tweaked, sure, every year until they feel it's becoming more and more fair; so is every sport from pee-wee to world class.

PS I have messed up on big projects at work, I may be or have been past over for promotions (one will never know) but I still am paid for my time and effort however shite my performance on a particular task may have been; because they look at my contribution as a whole.


Due to the high base values of the jumps at the World Senior level, falls on fully rotated jumps will only have a significant impact if they impact the PCS marks. Since each fall interrupts the performance and takes away from its overall quality, the Performance & Execution score should absolutely go down, and it is arguable that the Transitions, Skating Skills and Interpretation scores should also go down. That does not appear to have happened at the GPF with Chan

I'm sure they're plenty of top skaters who also fall into that category.

caseyedwards
12-12-2011, 10:40 PM
You can do things in gymnastics on floor that people want to ban where you land and roll rather than land with your feet and its OK at this point.

Points must be given for revolutions completed not just jumps that are landed.

hanca
12-12-2011, 10:45 PM
I don't understand why the deduction for a fall is a single number for all levels and disciplines. I realize there is also the negative GOE penalty, but a senior man's fall has almost no impact. What is 1 point, when their programs are worth SO many. By contrast- a novice ladies fall- it really impacts the score...



Yes, and in adult skating, the adult who does only singles can with one fall (or one point deduction for finishing out of time) delete the value of two clean single jumps!

Skittl1321
12-12-2011, 11:20 PM
Yes, and in adult skating, the adult who does only singles can with one fall (or one point deduction for finishing out of time) delete the value of two clean single jumps!

Yep- and the very few competitions that have the lowest levels under IJS basically give no credit for any of the elements- since half jumps don't have a value. But that is an entirely different problem than this one...

Iceman
12-13-2011, 12:47 AM
Chan and others are lucky they are competing under cop. Under the 6.0 system I suspect he would often end up with a silver or bronze rather than a gold.

luna_skater
12-13-2011, 12:58 AM
I don't understand why the deduction for a fall is a single number for all levels and disciplines. I realize there is also the negative GOE penalty, but a senior man's fall has almost no impact. What is 1 point, when their programs are worth SO many. By contrast- a novice ladies fall- it really impacts the score...


Synchro takes this into account (in Canada). For the lower, developmental levels, falls are only worth 0.5 instead of 1.0, so the effect they have on the score is more proportionate to the scores the team can achieve.

Vagabond
12-13-2011, 01:55 AM
http://savefigureskating.blogspot.com/2011/12/rewarding-failure-diminishes-sport-if.html?showComment=1323705688434#c293786609713670 8694

:yawn:


Common sense dictates that when a skater ... crashes into the boards, he failed. Under the 6.0 system, the attempt was marked as such.

:blah:

I very much doubt that under 6.0, crashing into the boards after successfully completing a 4T+3T would have been marked as a failure (i.e., given no base value). I think it would have been marked down a bit, but I don't think it would have been treated in the same way that a fall on the element would have been treated.


Where else but in figure skating is failure rewarded with such generosity?

American politics, where defeated incumbents are often given jobs as consultants, lobbyists, "historians," or commissioners. :P


From the onset, the International Judging System was designed to reward failure, much the same way grade school kids are rewarded with A’s for effort. If not revamped (or better yet, put through the shredder), the system will put figure skating — already on the endangered species list —into the grave for good.

The author is the kind of person that younger people swear not to become: embittered, nostalgic, blind to any improvements in the way things are done, and given to criticizing without coming up with any constructive suggestions. :scream:

PDilemma
12-13-2011, 02:34 AM
Bianchetti is the kind of person that younger people swear not to become: embittered, nostalgic, blind to any improvements in the way things are done, and given to criticizing without coming up with any constructive suggestions. :scream:

She didn't write this piece. :rolleyes:

minuet
12-13-2011, 02:38 AM
Synchro takes this into account (in Canada). For the lower, developmental levels, falls are only worth 0.5 instead of 1.0, so the effect they have on the score is more proportionate to the scores the team can achieve.

Also just wanted to point out that Skate Canada took this into account for singles as well from novice on down as skaters were reluctant to try harder jumps and take such severe fall penalties.

New rule put in place this year is that only the random falls on non-elements will be given the 0.5 deductions. Any fall on a jump attempt does not get the penalty only the - GOE.