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Vash01
12-21-2011, 05:09 PM
There are various kinds of lawyers, depending on what kind of work they do. All of them do not get high salaries, especially if e.g. working for the government.

Does Patrick's father work for the govt.? If he does, he has a middle class income- I would say in the same range as many other skaters. If he is in private practice, he should have a lot higher income. In any case, I don't believe that the public should support Patrick's training expenses. I would rather see that money go to schools, health, etc.- the real needs of the society, as Agalisgv so eloquently expressed in her post.

Hirschel
12-21-2011, 05:22 PM
1. When you allow Corporations or private citizens to donate more of their tax money to sport, it takes that money out of the general tax pool, which pays for Heathcare and roads (unless you increase taxes to compensate). So essential services have to survive on less money, so Patrick Chan can hire 4 coaches. Usually the 1%ers do not understand this concept. The 99% do.

2. Far more could be done for Obesity, cutting the massive tax breaks to sugar manufacturers and putting a Health (Fat) Tax on unhealthy processed and fast food (which they do in Belgium now and have done in Canada, with tobacco, for years). This would not only fight Obesity, but it would add a huge amount of tax revenue. It would cost the Canadian tax payer nothing and only requires a strong willed Parliamentary vote.

3. No Canadian Corporation is going to donate to a guy who says he would rather compete for China (and Singapore). Patrick blew it. The Canadian Taxpayer should not make up for this. It is over for him, unless a Canadian-Chinese company decides to sponsor him.

4. Skate Canada has made more disastrous marketing decisions, in the last 3 years, than any private Corporation would be allowed to. The shareholders would have revolted, long ago and fired the management. Skate Canada is a text book example of the worst combination of Government Funding with no oversight. All athletes under Skate Canada are paying for this incompetence.

5. If you want Corporations to fund skating, start putting on shows and competitions that fill stadiums in many major cities. Corporations will be begging to be a sponsor (not running away: See #4 – or ask the Bank of Montreal for details) and TV networks will not be airing only the bare minimum amount of skating to secure their Canadian Content funding, which is what is happening in Canada, right now. Corporate sponsorship is a “chicken and the egg” game.

NorthernDancers
12-21-2011, 06:37 PM
1. When you allow Corporations or private citizens to donate more of their tax money to sport, it takes that money out of the general tax pool, which pays for Heathcare and roads (unless you increase taxes to compensate). So essential services have to survive on less money, so Patrick Chan can hire 4 coaches. Usually the 1%ers do not understand this concept. The 99% do.

2. Far more could be done for Obesity, cutting the massive tax breaks to sugar manufacturers and putting a Health (Fat) Tax on unhealthy processed and fast food (which they do in Belgium now and have done in Canada, with tobacco, for years). This would not only fight Obesity, but it would add a huge amount of tax revenue. It would cost the Canadian tax payer nothing and only requires a strong willed Parliamentary vote.

3. No Canadian Corporation is going to donate to a guy who says he would rather compete for China (and Singapore). Patrick blew it. The Canadian Taxpayer should not make up for this. It is over for him, unless a Canadian-Chinese company decides to sponsor him.

4. Skate Canada has made more disastrous marketing decisions, in the last 3 years, than any private Corporation would be allowed to. The shareholders would have revolted, long ago and fired the management. Skate Canada is a text book example of the worst combination of Government Funding with no oversight. All athletes under Skate Canada are paying for this incompetence.

5. If you want Corporations to fund skating, start putting on shows and competitions that fill stadiums in many major cities. Corporations will be begging to be a sponsor (not running away: See #4 – or ask the Bank of Montreal for details) and TV networks will not be airing only the bare minimum amount of skating to secure their Canadian Content funding, which is what is happening in Canada, right now. Corporate sponsorship is a “chicken and the egg” game.


1. This reasoning assumes that corporations are making a choice between sports and taxes. I don't think that's the case. The corporations are already donating money to worthy causes and getting tax benefits. The money is NOT going into taxes today. It's going to other charities and community causes. According to Canadian tax law, corporations and individuals are not allowed to donate and claim money to athletes. To me, that's wrong. Supporting athletes is a worthy cause. There may be some additional money for a local star athlete from a corporation if this would be changed, but businesses are pretty careful in managing their cash and tax payable and donations. And by the way, I'm one of those 99%....

As for private citizens, it has to be a full cost-benefit analysis. What you get on one hand would be saved on another. Lose money on one side in income tax revenues, gain more in sales tax. Invest more in sports, spend less on healthcare. What's the old saying? An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Given the rising costs of healthcare, that's certainly very true.

2. Great idea. Nothing wrong with that. But this idea doesn't take away the need for everyone to be more physically active, and to set the habit at a young age. It's not happening in schools. There is also a growing body of research that shows regular, hard physical activity not only improves the body, but improves brain activity and ability to learn. It's not just about diet. It's about exercise. And along the way, athletes learn valuable life lessons that will help them be successful in whatever they choose to do later in life. Maybe your idea helps pay for increasing funding in sports which has such positive benefits in so many ways.

3. That might be true, if Patrick actually said that, which he didn't. When asked if he could represent both countries, would he do it, and he said yes. That doesn't mean he'd choose China over Canada. Sorry, but he just didn't say that. It sounds like Chinese-Canadian companies are helping him out. It would be nice for them to get a little reward for their generosity and encourage others to do the same. It doesn't have to all come from tax dollars. When the community supports the community, that is the best approach.

4. I'll absolutely agree with that one. Their job is to raise the profile of the sport and help solve these funding matters for all skaters. They've failed dismally. They are in desparate need of some new ideas that work. And they also need to examine their own funding rules for athletes. I believe that individual "sponsor an athlete" initiatives are not easy to arrange because of Skate Canada rules as well. It's quite a process, and I don't think the donaters are allowed to receive much, if any, recognition. We have a LTAD program. Now we need a long-term athlete FUNDING program to match.

5. Perhaps more shows that bring in an audience will help. Maybe stop holding events in the middle of nowhere so that more audience can show up. Challenge is a huge event. But Regina? I don't know too many people who paid the big bucks in flights to go there. I'm guessing Mississauga had better ticket sales. The GPF was well attended. I'm sure Canadians will be full in Moncton. Worlds in London will be a huge opportunity. I think corporations need some recognition, as well as monetary benefit (see #1 above), for their efforts at an athlete and event level, and there just has to be more promotion of the sport in order to ensure a viewing audience for TV (see #4 above). The networks could do a lot, in conjunction with Skate Canada. Their stupid idea around changing the schedule for Canadians is not helping matters. And the sport has to be less expensive so it is more accessible to more people, which will generate more interest in the sport in general.

Hirschel
12-21-2011, 08:58 PM
1. So convince Manulife that figure skating is more important than Cancer research. Convince Avon Cosmetics that they should drop their sponsorship of Safe Houses for Abused Women in favour of Patrick Chan getting a 5th coach. Good luck with that.

2. You can not pass a law that makes people exercise, but you can pass a law that makes a Big Mac $20 and a Can of Soda $10. This is real and immediate change. You can only encourage and suggest physical activity, of which figure skating is a very expensive source of. Football (Soccer in the US) is far more cost effective, as is about any other athletic sport. So politically pushing for more public funding of figure skating, in the interest of increased public health, always loses you the efficient use of money argument, unless preaching to the privileged classes or the very small group of people, like yourself, with a strong personal and emotional attachment to figure skating. It will not work for the other 99.999%.

3. The Media is not a Science Lab or a Court of Law. Patrick has been type cast for life, it is a numbers game which Skate Canada lost. One of many media numbers games, Skate Canada has lost in the in the last 3 years. I can see your emotionally driven, internal refusal to accept this.

4. The Skate Canada brand is dead.

5. Show skating feeds competition audience numbers. Without the shows for recruiting new generations, the competitions die off. Look at the current audience demographics of show skating, ignoring the statistical oddities of the occasional male or person under 40, which are always pointed out in vain. More promotion of a dead sport is a colossal waste of money, but it is the only solution the powers that be, ever offer up. The 1990s are not coming back, ever. Make figure skating interesting by radically changing it, to meet the entertainment expectations of a new generation, or die off, which seems to be what is happening. High training costs are just a magnifier, making this all happen even faster. The spike in interest in Asia is a temporary game of catch up. They will be just as bored of figure skating, 10 years from now.

This quote from the Danny Devito Movie "Other Peoples Money" sums up perfectly, the mentality killing off interest and sponsorship in figure skating today:

I didn't kill figure skating ....."It was dead when I got here. It's too late for prayers. For even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred, and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing, we would still be dead. You know why?. New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead alright. We're just not broke. And you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes. Slow but sure. You know, at one time there must've been dozens of companies making buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best goddamn buggy whip you ever saw. Now how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company?" ...... actually figure skating is financially broke.


[URL="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102609/quotes"]

agalisgv
12-21-2011, 09:19 PM
The idea that money for sports will automatically come out of the budget for higher education, low income housing, libraries and after school programs is just not accurate....Budgets at a departmental level are set by government policy, and each department can run a deficit or a surplus. The surplus in one is generally not transferred to other departments. My point was there is a finite amount of money a country has for spending projects. The more money is spent in one place, the less it can be spent in another.

Is spending a quarter million dollars a year on *one* athlete a good use of tax payer dollars?

I would say unequivocally no.
When a corporation is looking to reduce it's tax payable and wants to do something good for the community, they will give money to their pet projects....It's not a choice for them to either give to skating or give to the government in tax. Those two sentences contradict each other. It's the avoidance of paying taxes that push corporations to give to charity. In effect those charitable corporate contributions are functioning as distribution of tax dollars. And governments have interest in seeing those tax dollars go to where they are most needed.

Giving it to a single figure skater who isn't exactly poor isn't a prudent expenditure of taxpayer monies, and does not represent sound public policy.
For parents, a simple change in the tax law could be allowing skating expenses to be claimed as private education expense. Skating does not equal an education. In many cases, it actually impedes it. Taking money away from education to fund skating is wrong on so many levels, I think it's pretty sad that someone would even think to advocate that.
A grassroots skater has very tiny bills compared to a national or international level competitor. The overall exposure is not that huge. Except you also have the grassroots horseback rider, the grassroots soccer player, the grassroots hockey player, the grassroots curling player, the grassroots archer, the grassroots chess player, the grassroots baseball player, the grassroots basketball player, the grassroots gymnast, the grassroots ballet dancer, the grassroots powwow dancer, etc.

That's quite a bit of money to fund all that. And it comes out of the budget, according to you, from education.

No thanks
Why should society care about promoting and funding participation in sports? Because we have a whole generation of obese and inactive people who will place a tremendous burden on the health care system as they age. Government can *promote* healthy lifestyles, and I would argue should do that aggressively.

But there's a BIG difference between promoting something, and providing public funds to subsidize it. The government could just as easily fund gym memberships for people. At least there the money would go to people who actually have weight problems. Elite athletes aren't exactly the ones struggling with obesity.
School is designed to ensure everyone wins, noone ever feels bad, and there is no competition. Schools are designed to teach specific skill sets that can then be used for future training in either trade fields or university education.

I'm sorry, but your views on education and economics are very far divorced from reality.
That might be true, if Patrick actually said that, which he didn't. When asked if he could represent both countries, would he do it, and he said yes. You missed the interview he did with a Singapore newspaper where he said he wanted to compete for Singapore in the future.

That quip about competing for China wasn't an isolated incident. I've yet to hear Chan distance himself from his statements regarding Singapore.

overedge
12-21-2011, 09:20 PM
3. The Media is not a Science Lab or a Court of Law. Patrick has been type cast for life, it is a numbers game which Skate Canada lost. One of many media numbers games, Skate Canada has lost in the in the last 3 years. I can see your emotionally driven, internal refusal to accept this.


You know, you can believe whatever you want to believe, and argue whatever you want to argue. But when you blame someone's disagreeing with you on something you have absolutely no way of knowing anything about, while insulting their emotional state and reasoning ability at the same time, any credibility you might have had just gets blown to shreds.

leapfrogonice
12-21-2011, 10:20 PM
Trapped? Trapped! The point of view is pre supposed in the title. I think the bigger issue is whether he had the common sense to avoid getting himself caught up in this issue in the first place, and then, whether Skate Canada simply loved all the brouhaha that followed as a way to earn some "ink" in the National sports section when Final was being hosted. Just sayin'

Japanfan
12-21-2011, 11:28 PM
4. Skate Canada has made more disastrous marketing decisions, in the last 3 years, than any private Corporation would be allowed to. The shareholders would have revolted, long ago and fired the management. Skate Canada is a text book example of the worst combination of Government Funding with no oversight. All athletes under Skate Canada are paying for this incompetence.


Can you explain what those decisions were?

Japanfan
12-21-2011, 11:36 PM
Could also be that top athletes are perceived as making their countries proud internationally and I think it would be safe to say it does fill the hearts of most people with collective joy and emotion to hear their national anthem playing and/or their national flag rising at medal ceremonies. Also seems athletes by their achievements are bringing fun and excitement into the lives of millions of people worldwide and help them forget their daily hardships and concerns for a while and given this special appeal that they have for being able to do what others can't do, there is indeed a wide-spread view among the fans of all sports that athletes would be entitled to more than the rest of us. It might not be about creating a class priviledge but just encouraging and supporting special gifts and excellence like in any other area.

I guess we - common figure skating fans - too believe skaters are special people, otherwise we wouldn't be constantly coming here from all around the world to talk about them. LOL

The entitlement to more for being special is class privilege.

Figure skaters were seen as special and were a source of national pride back in the days when they earned hardly anything. And many of the athletes who fit your description don't earn a whole lot of money - there are a lot of sports which don't receive much attention. There was a Canadian paralympic skiier who had four (IIRC) prosthetic limbs and won multiple gold medals in 2010. I doubt very much that is raking the cash in but she certainly was an inspiration, as most paralympic athletes are.

Plus, there are many people who touch many people's lives in various ways, do meaningful work, and effect change. And the most of them aren't accorded special status such that they become wealthy because of it.

Skating does give me great joy and I have tremendous admiration for skaters' work and accomplishments. But that doesn't mean I think they are so special they should earn more than the rest of us.

nlloyd
12-22-2011, 07:42 AM
A pie-chart in an (unrelated) article on the CBC website may provide some socio-economic context for this discussion. Apparently around 50% of Canadians make under $30K/year. See chart at end of article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/12/09/canadian-millionaires-taxes.html.

Iceman
12-22-2011, 07:47 AM
Didn't Rudy Galindo grow up in a TRAILER??? As did Natalie & Wayne Seybold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9hi14C5LtI

Wayne Seybold is in Congress now. He represents Marion Indiana.



And Peggy lived in a tent for a summer because of money problems!!!!!!

Iceman
12-22-2011, 08:11 AM
How does Patrick's piano playing compare to that of Mira Leung? lmao By the way, what is mira up to these days?

operagirl
12-22-2011, 08:29 AM
A lot of Russian skaters have lived at their rinks or been homeless - Oksana Baiul for example. Rudy Galindo and the Seybolds grew up in trailers. Patrick Chan complaining about sleeping on a couch in his parents condo is a joke. He's had enough money to afford eyelid surgery. What did that have to do with skating?

Japanfan
12-22-2011, 09:01 AM
A lot of Russian skaters have lived at their rinks or been homeless - Oksana Baiul for example. Rudy Galindo and the Seybolds grew up in trailers. Patrick Chan complaining about sleeping on a couch in his parents condo is a joke. He's had enough money to afford eyelid surgery. What did that have to do with skating?

Um, Patrick never complained about sleeping in a couch in his parents' condo. It was a Globe and Mail writer who stated that he slept in the "den" but den's often double for bedrooms. The same writer commented that he had his own bedroom and bathroom in the Colorado Springs condo, again not a comment made by Patrick. The writer was trying to make Patrick look like a person who came from a family of modest means - not Patrick himself. Patrick had as little control over this article as he did over the original one indicating that he wanted to skate for China.

And where is the evidence that he has actually had eyelid surgery?

tralfamadorian
12-22-2011, 01:09 PM
5. Show skating feeds competition audience numbers. Without the shows for recruiting new generations, the competitions die off. Look at the current audience demographics of show skating, ignoring the statistical oddities of the occasional male or person under 40, which are always pointed out in vain. More promotion of a dead sport is a colossal waste of money, but it is the only solution the powers that be, ever offer up. The 1990s are not coming back, ever. Make figure skating interesting by radically changing it, to meet the entertainment expectations of a new generation, or die off, which seems to be what is happening. High training costs are just a magnifier, making this all happen even faster. The spike in interest in Asia is a temporary game of catch up. They will be just as bored of figure skating, 10 years from now.
This is not about Patrick but something I've been really wondering about: Battle of the Blades has been such a huge hit in Canada, you'd expect that TPTB would try to take advantage of this somehow and use it to raise the popularity of figure skating or raise awareness about the current top Canadian skaters, for example they could have some eligible skater do an exhibition in each show or just feature them as a coach or a guest judge for a week? They could also use the show to explain and demonstrate some technique issues (for example good edges vs bad edges) that you wouldn't be able to explain that well during a regular skating broadcast.
Yet this doesn't seem to be happening and I'm not sure why, if it's ISU regulations or $$$ or CBC has different ideas about what the show should be like etc, but it's really such a wasted opportunity IMO.