PDA

View Full Version : Chan trapped between two worlds



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25 26 27 28

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 07:25 PM
Witt was expressing gratitude towards the system that developed her. Whereas Chan was talking about how much better he'd be if he had been developed elsewhere.
I've seen no quote from Chan that suggests he'd be a better skater if he'd developed elsewhere. He clearly said his parents would not have had to make the financial sacrifices they've had if he had been trained in China, where the government would have paid for it, not mostly his parents with help from the Chinese-Canadian community to bridge the gap between what he gets from sponsors and Skate Canada.

The difference between the two is that Witt's parents could never have afforded to pay for her training, and she would never have been a world-class skater without the East German government, while Chan's parents have been able to with outside help, and over the last three-four years, Chan's prize winnings.

Witt's statement is true of the vast majority of working class and poor people in any country where the skaters have to finance for advanced training by themselves and anyone they can convince to help them.

bek
12-18-2011, 07:31 PM
I've seen no quote from Chan that suggests he'd be a better skater if he'd developed elsewhere. He clearly said his parents would not have had to make the financial sacrifices they've had if he had been trained in China, where the government would have paid for it, not mostly his parents with help from the Chinese-Canadian community to bridge the gap between what he gets from sponsors and Skate Canada.

The difference between the two is that Witt's parents could never have afforded to pay for her training, and she would never have been a world-class skater without the East German government, while Chan's parents have been able to with outside help, and over the last three-four years, Chan's prize winnings.

Witt's statement is true of the vast majority of working class and poor people in any country where the skaters have to finance for advanced training by themselves and anyone they can convince to help them.


But he was talking about his parents wouldn't have to fight for funding, true. But we are saying if he stayed in China, he wouldn't have the same access to coaches which is also true. You can't have one without other... He likely wouldn't be Patrick Chan if he had grown up in China.

I do think though that there is something to be said for making sports/art education available to many, of course as long as the kids/children aren't treated like machines/property rather than children. And I don't see anything wrong with people pointing that out. I actually think there are a lot of children who could benefit from having access to this type of education.

pingu
12-18-2011, 07:55 PM
The truth behind Patrick Chanís China crisis
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/the-truth-behind-patrick-chans-china-crisis/article2274646/page1/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/the-truth-behind-patrick-chans-china-crisis/article2274646/page2/


In Toronto, the Chans live in a 900-square-foot condo, and when their son comes home, he does not have his own bedroom. He sleeps in the den.

LOL, I live with my parents and two siblings in a 120-square-meter (about 394-square-foot) condo.
Maybe Patrick should come to visit Italy and learn about the financial situation of our skaters, I'm sure after that he'll kiss the Canadian soil for every day of his life.

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 07:57 PM
But he was talking about his parents wouldn't have to fight for funding, true. But we are saying if he stayed in China, he wouldn't have the same access to coaches which is also true. You can't have one without other... He likely wouldn't be Patrick Chan if he had grown up in China.
I've never seen him argue that he'd be even at his level if he'd grown up in China, let alone better, and although I'd guess he hasn't thought that part out very well, he wouldn't have to be Patrick Chan, winning three GP's so far this season and, so far, only covering 1/2 of his projected yearly costs.

He's not that much older than Yan Han, though, who has beautiful, soft blades and is very impressive, so either something good is cooking with Chinese coaching now, or a unique and driven talent can make something more of himself, even without great coaching.

bek
12-18-2011, 08:09 PM
I've never seen him argue that he'd be even at his level if he'd grown up in China, let alone better, and although I'd guess he hasn't thought that part out very well, he wouldn't have to be Patrick Chan, winning three GP's so far this season and, so far, only covering 1/2 of his projected yearly costs.

He's not that much older than Yan Han, though, who has beautiful, soft blades and is very impressive, so either something good is cooking with Chinese coaching now, or a unique and driven talent can make something more of himself, even without great coaching.

Its whats cooking now in China, but I suspect Yan's coaches developed that in part because of the success of people like Chan. Look at where Nan Song is skating skills wise right now vs Chan. Not to mention the area in China, Patrick's from, I believe people are saying has like no ice skating rinks.

I think Patrick is young enough to "not think about these things." But I think the point is that it takes more than money to make you a champion, its also the training you receive etc. You can have all the money (whether it be state money or your parents money)and all the talent in the world but if you don't have access to the right people/coaches/facilities. Well its not happening for you.

Thats why I'm saying I prefer Katerina Witt's, I am where I am because of the system that developed me good and bad; vs a grasses greener on the other side.

Skittl1321
12-18-2011, 08:15 PM
LOL, I live with my parents and two siblings in a 120-square-meter (about 394-square-foot) condo.


I think you did the conversion wrong. 120 square meters is about 1,300 square feet. (1 square meter = 1.2 square yards, 1 square yard = 9 square feet)
You live in a larger condo than they do, though it sounds like you have more people in yours.

I don't know what average is for Italy, but 900 square feet is pretty small in North America, unless they live in the downtown of a major city.

Vash01
12-18-2011, 08:22 PM
Its whats cooking now in China, but I suspect Yan's coaches developed that in part because of the success of people like Chan. Look at where Nan Song is skating skills wise right now vs Chan. Not to mention the area in China, Patrick's from, I believe people are saying has like no ice skating rinks.

I think Patrick is young enough to "not think about these things." But I think the point is that it takes more than money to make you a champion, its also the training you receive etc. You can have all the money (whether it be state money or your parents money)and all the talent in the world but if you don't have access to the right people/coaches/facilities. Well its not happening for you.

Thats why I'm saying I prefer Katerina Witt's, I am where I am because of the system that developed me good and bad; vs a grasses greener on the other side.

I believe in China it does not matter where you are from; if you have the talent as a youngster, you are selected and sent to the training facility, which could be thousands of miles away............correct me I am wrong.

Katarina gave credit to the system that helped her develop, and in the past the USSR athletes had the same priviledges, if they had the talent.

So it makes sense that if Chan had grown up in China, his expenses would have been taken care of, but he might have had to sacrifice a lot more than he did in Canada (living away from the family, etc.). I don't think he considered that, based on what I am reading.

pingu
12-18-2011, 08:24 PM
I think you did the conversion wrong. 120 square meters is about 1,300 square feet. (1 square meter = 1.2 square yards, 1 square yard = 9 square feet)
You live in a larger condo than they do, though it sounds like you have more people in yours.

I don't know what average is for Italy, but 900 square feet is pretty small in North America, unless they live in the downtown of a major city.

Ops, sorry!!! :shuffle:

kwanfan1818
12-18-2011, 08:48 PM
Its whats cooking now in China, but I suspect Yan's coaches developed that in part because of the success of people like Chan. Look at where Nan Song is skating skills wise right now vs Chan.
Nan Song is four months older than Patrick Chan, and skating skills like his don't suddenly appear overnight. I've seen Song live, and while he's a bit behind Yan, he has lovely flow over the ice.

Chan didn't really make a mark internationally until the 2007-8 season, and at their first Worlds (together), Kozuka placed 8th over his 9th.


Not to mention the area in China, Patrick's from, I believe people are saying has like no ice skating rinks.

You mean, Hong Kong, where both of his parents are from and where his mother lived until she was an adult? The Olympic sized rink there was opened in 2007, but I'm not sure what was there when he was a kid.

bek
12-18-2011, 08:49 PM
I believe in China it does not matter where you are from; if you have the talent as a youngster, you are selected and sent to the training facility, which could be thousands of miles away............correct me I am wrong.

Katarina gave credit to the system that helped her develop, and in the past the USSR athletes had the same priviledges, if they had the talent.

So it makes sense that if Chan had grown up in China, his expenses would have been taken care of, but he might have had to sacrifice a lot more than he did in Canada (living away from the family, etc.). I don't think he considered that, based on what I am reading.

It may not matter where your coming from but if there were no access to rinks where he lived, would his talent have even been found?

Zemgirl
12-18-2011, 09:29 PM
I don't know what average is for Italy, but 900 square feet is pretty small in North America, unless they live in the downtown of a major city.
I have friends with kids who live in apartments similar in size to that of the Chan family. Of course bigger homes are nice, but it's hardly a form of deprivation for a family with one child to live in a 900 square foot apartment, and they do live in a fairly expensive location, don't they?

The Chans chose a rather expensive training model for their son: living in what I assume is a nice area in a major city, elite coaching and choreography from a young age, a team of experts to help with different aspects of his skating... was it all necessary? I don't know if he'd have become a top skater without it. He might have, or maybe not. Certainly some people were able to accomplish quite a bit without such pricey training until later in their careers, while others might have benefited from better training conditions and coaching. But how much of this should a federation cover? And meanwhile, is Patrick maximizing his earning potential (e.g. doing skating shows, competing in three GPs, giving some skating lessons)?

If the Chans' investment in Patrick's skating over the years was done to help him fulfill his potential as a skater, great. If it was done with the expectation of a return and even profit on the investment, I don't know what they were thinking. For one thing, even when Patrick was fairly young, skating was already down from its peak years in terms of public interest. And even if that hadn't been the case, the odds of reaching the top, even for a very talented skater, are slim. What if after years of training Patrick had been unable to master the hardest jumps? What if his career had been ended by injury or derailed by other problems? To see any return on such an investment is wonderful, and I'm not sure Patrick and his family realize how fortunate he is to have a supportive federation and a major sponsor, not to mention many others supporting his career in a more limited capacity. A lot of skaters max out their potential at a lower level and don't have the options and opportunities Patrick has and will have.

Japanfan
12-19-2011, 12:45 AM
In several recent interviews Chan has acknowledged that people are reading way too much into his statements about China. All he meant was that if he was a skater in China, the government would foot the bill. Which is true.

He wasn't thinking deeply about how training in China would have made his life different. He wasn't drawing any firm conclusions or expressing any deep emotions beyond appreciation of his Chinese heritage.

He also acknowledged that he should choose his words more carefully. :)



I have friends with kids who live in apartments similar in size to that of the Chan family. Of course bigger homes are nice, but it's hardly a form of deprivation for a family with one child to live in a 900 square foot apartment, and they do live in a fairly expensive location, don't they?

The Chans chose a rather expensive training model for their son: living in what I assume is a nice area in a major city, elite coaching and choreography from a young age, a team of experts to help with different aspects of his skating... was it all necessary? I don't know if he'd have become a top skater without it. He might have, or maybe not. Certainly some people were able to accomplish quite a bit without such pricey training until later in their careers, while others might have benefited from better training conditions and coaching. But how much of this should a federation cover? And meanwhile, is Patrick maximizing his earning potential (e.g. doing skating shows, competing in three GPs, giving some skating lessons)?

If the Chans' investment in Patrick's skating over the years was done to help him fulfill his potential as a skater, great. If it was done with the expectation of a return and even profit on the investment, I don't know what they were thinking. For one thing, even when Patrick was fairly young, skating was already down from its peak years in terms of public interest. And even if that hadn't been the case, the odds of reaching the top, even for a very talented skater, are slim. What if after years of training Patrick had been unable to master the hardest jumps? What if his career had been ended by injury or derailed by other problems? To see any return on such an investment is wonderful, and I'm not sure Patrick and his family realize how fortunate he is to have a supportive federation and a major sponsor, not to mention many others supporting his career in a more limited capacity. A lot of skaters max out their potential at a lower level and don't have the options and opportunities Patrick has and will have.

I find it odd that the family needed a fundraiser to help Patrick pay for his training. I understand that his training costs are sky high but wouldn't his prize monies, show appearance monies, sponsorships (which are few but not none), and government funding add up to quite a lot of money? I'm thinking 100K per per year would be possible. Isn't that enough for a year's training?

The family may have run into financial difficulties in recent years, as many people have in this economy. Who knows?

They obviously have a lot more money than the average family - yes, a 900 square foot apartment in a nice area of Toronto and yes, they have paid a lot to train Patrick over the years.

But perceptions of financial hardship are very relative. If you live in a 900 square foot condo and your friends all own mansions and yachts, you might feel hard done by.

kwanfan1818
12-19-2011, 01:31 AM
I'm thinking 100K per per year would be possible. Isn't that enough for a year's training?
There was a newspaper article and a big discussion about how his training costs are at least $150K/year, and that doesn't include the expenses of two households.

The "It would have been different" comments that he made are similar to the "If I had only been born in the Xth century or in Y times" that I'm sure many of us have made or thought, and well past 20. I'd much rather be a literate 21st century peasant in a first world country than a peasant anywhere else in any other time, and even if by some cosmic joke I had been Madame de Rambouillet, I still would have lived without reliable birth control, modern dentistry, electricity, indoor plumbing, antibiotics, and effective anesthesia, and to that, I say "non".

Jot the Dot Dot
12-19-2011, 02:58 AM
Growing up under the Communist system can be hazardous to an athlete's health. Maybe not for figure skaters, but certainly for others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_at_the_Olympics#Doping_of_the_East_Ge rmans

berthesghost
12-19-2011, 05:36 AM
I don't know what average is for Italy, but 900 square feet is pretty small in North America, unless they live in the downtown of a major city.its very average for a typical two bedroom, which the chan's apparently have. It's not their only home and they obviously choose to make the 2nd room a "den" since their adult son doesn't live with them full time.

seriously, that spin article only made things worse with its bogus excuses. With the economy the way it is and people losing their homes, are we really suppose to feel so bad for patty because he has to sleep in the den when visiting His parents, that we forget all the things he said about being under appreciated at home and how they'd sacrifice less in china. Yeah right. Like the Chinese skaters's parents all have two bedroom second homes. :rolleyes: