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krenseby
12-05-2011, 02:52 AM
A coach's approach and training strategy may remain similar despite dealing with many different skaters. Therefore, it would make sense that a coach's current skater ends up skating like his or her former student. Have you noticed this to be true?

Now let's bring this to bear upon specific situations:

Does Mirai Nagasu's skating resemble that of Michelle Kwan, previously trained by Frank Carroll?

What about Christina Gao's style and technique being similar to Yuna Kim's?

Finally, though has she been training under Morozov only briefly, has Alena Leonova's skating become more like Miki Ando's?

Those are the three cases I've been thinking of, but I am sure there are others.

overedge
12-05-2011, 03:07 AM
Finally, though has she been training under Morozov only briefly, has Alena Leonova's skating become more like Miki Ando's?


I sincerely hope not.

smarts1
12-05-2011, 03:15 AM
Well, I find Alena's skating to be very sloppy and unrefined, so if she can disappear from the skating world, that's good with me.

orbitz
12-05-2011, 04:01 AM
Does Mirai Nagasu's skating resemble that of Michelle Kwan, previously trained by Frank Carroll?


I don't see any resemblances in their styles.



What about Christina Gao's style and technique being similar to Yuna Kim's?


No similarity here either.


Coaches sometimes do teach skater to skate like them though. For example, Josee Chouinard tried to turn Yoshee Onda into a mini-Josee. Toller Cranston had Chris Bowman performed Cranston-esque moves in his LP. And it seems like David Wilson and Orser are having Javier skate like an Orser's clone for his SP.

The one case where students of a coach all skate with the same style was that of Frau Mueller. After Witt, all the girls coached by Mueller all skated like a Witt-clone.

krenseby
12-05-2011, 04:05 AM
Coaches sometimes do teach skater to skate like them though. For example, Josee Chouinard tried to turn Yoshee Onda into a mini-Josee.

But was that a good idea? Did Yoshi benefit from trying to skate like Josée used to?

Lynn226
12-05-2011, 04:30 AM
Or could it be that the skater is imitating the coach or skater that he/she admires? Maybe it's a two way street.

I have noticed that some choreographers use the same moves with different skaters. This seems a bit cheap sometimes, even if the moves are truly unique. Of course, some skaters will perform the choreography better than others.

Mafke
12-05-2011, 07:18 AM
The one case where students of a coach all skate with the same style was that of Frau Mueller. After Witt, all the girls coached by Mueller all skated like a Witt-clone.


It went way further back than that, basically up thru early Witt she trained all her ladies to be clones of her daughter, Gaby Seyfert. Mature Witt somehow managed to create her own style and post Witt her skaters were Seyfert-Witt clones.

briancoogaert
12-05-2011, 10:53 AM
The only resemblance is when a coach has both skaters from the beginning.
In term of basics, jumping technique...
If not, there can be influences...

pumba
12-05-2011, 11:34 AM
It's just my perception, but Moskvina's pairs after B/S resemble Elena & Anton.
Besides having a bunch of outstanding couples - B/S seem to be the highlight of her career, have more fans than anyone and are a benchmark for many.
I'm not even talking of Yulia Obertas comparison with Elena, but for me O/S's style was very reminiscent of B/S '96-'99 years.
When O/S retired I felt that K/S became the embodiment of ideas which Moskvina could not bring to life with O/S, but when Yuko & Alexander turned more mature and into a real elite couple, they became more like B/S choreographically, or at least I feel that B/S are a reference for them.

Edgeofglory
12-05-2011, 02:31 PM
How about Courtney Hicks and Sasha Cohen? Same coach, same music, same EXACT dress, and attempting a quad sal...

berthesghost
12-05-2011, 03:46 PM
No.

I think coaches have very definite ideas about what package will be successful, and therefore create a sort of style with costume, choreo, music, etc...

Of the 3 you listed above, I see zero similarity. Lenova's sp for example, I see as typical morosov choreo. In fact, it reminds me much more of florian imodio than miki ando, whom I've never once seen do this type of crowd-pleasing crotch-grabbing program. Now, if she shows up next year with an lp to Tosca, I won't be at all surprised. :lol

If you compare fratianne, Kwan and miria's Carmen programs, i see 3 very different skaters using the same music and similar costumes.

Vash01
12-05-2011, 04:49 PM
It's just my perception, but Moskvina's pairs after B/S resemble Elena & Anton.
Besides having a bunch of outstanding couples - B/S seem to be the highlight of her career, have more fans than anyone and are a benchmark for many.
I'm not even talking of Yulia Obertas comparison with Elena, but for me O/S's style was very reminiscent of B/S '96-'99 years.
When O/S retired I felt that K/S became the embodiment of ideas which Moskvina could not bring to life with O/S, but when Yuko & Alexander turned more mature and into a real elite couple, they became more like B/S choreographically, or at least I feel that B/S are a reference for them.


I don't see any resemblance between B&S and K&S. Each pair has its own style and strengths. Yuko has flexibility and Tamara uses that in the choreography, as she used it for M&D, K&D, B&S and even B&P in the past. Lines and unison are very basic to pairs skating, and B&S were in a class of their own in that respect (only G&G were equal). In terms of talent, K&S are not even close to B&S, although I do like them as one of the pairs of today.

O&S were reminiscent of B&S only because Yulia's basic skating skills were similar to Elena's, but Slavnov did not have similar skills to Anton, so there was no way Tamara could have created another B&S. Yulia was more extroverted in her expression- very different from Elena. Tamara did use Concert for Coloratura for one of their SP's but it was obvious that they were very different from B&S who were very lyrical in their skating. That may be the only case where she may have tried to repeat what had worked in the past for another pair, but again it was because Yulia's skating looked similar to Elena's.

Tamara coached K&D after M&D. They were bound to be similar because half the pair was the same, but even then K&D were different from M&D, with Oksana being more extroverted than Natalia, and she created some unique moves for them.

Tamara certainly did not create B&S as M&D clone (if we were to follow your theory, this could be done backwards too) who were her most successful pair from 1991 to 1994 (and still admired by many), so I disagree that B&S were the highlight of her coaching career. Who can forget 'Dream of Love' 91 & 92 by M&D and their incredible Rachmaninoff skate at the 1994 Olympics? Also don't forget that she coached Valova-Vassiliev to an OGM and 3 world championships. B&S were certainly the most beautiful pair she coached, but that does not mean she did not have other 'highlights' in her amazing coaching career.

Marco
12-05-2011, 05:06 PM
How about Courtney Hicks and Sasha Cohen? Same coach, same music, same EXACT dress, and attempting a quad sal...

:rofl: I forgot about the quad sal! And also the very pretty cannonball, layback and headless scratch spins.

But then the feet.. :shuffle:

briancoogaert
12-05-2011, 05:09 PM
It's just my perception, but Moskvina's pairs after B/S resemble Elena & Anton.
It's funny because many russian pairs were compared to Gordeeva&Grinkov, including Petrova&Sikharulidze and Berezhnaya&Sikharulidze.
In that case, I think it's more about role model than same coach.
In France, Brian Joubert tried to look like Alexei Yagudin, and Romain Ponsart tried to look like Brian Joubert ! lol

pumba
12-05-2011, 05:48 PM
I don't see any resemblance between B&S and K&S. Each pair has its own style and strengths. Yuko has flexibility and Tamara uses that in the choreography, as she used it for M&D, K&D, B&S and even B&P in the past. Lines and unison are very basic to pairs skating, and B&S were in a class of their own in that respect (only G&G were equal). In terms of talent, K&S are not even close to B&S, although I do like them as one of the pairs of today.

O&S were reminiscent of B&S only because Yulia's basic skating skills were similar to Elena's, but Slavnov did not have similar skills to Anton, so there was no way Tamara could have created another B&S. Yulia was more extroverted in her expression- very different from Elena. Tamara did use Concert for Coloratura for one of their SP's but it was obvious that they were very different from B&S who were very lyrical in their skating. That may be the only case where she may have tried to repeat what had worked in the past for another pair, but again it was because Yulia's skating looked similar to Elena's.

Tamara coached K&D after M&D. They were bound to be similar because half the pair was the same, but even then K&D were different from M&D, with Oksana being more extroverted than Natalia, and she created some unique moves for them.

Tamara certainly did not create B&S as M&D clone (if we were to follow your theory, this could be done backwards too) who were her most successful pair from 1991 to 1994 (and still admired by many), so I disagree that B&S were the highlight of her coaching career. Who can forget 'Dream of Love' 91 & 92 by M&D and their incredible Rachmaninoff skate at the 1994 Olympics? Also don't forget that she coached Valova-Vassiliev to an OGM and 3 world championships. B&S were certainly the most beautiful pair she coached, but that does not mean she did not have other 'highlights' in her amazing coaching career.
Thank you for that much detail, for someone it'll certainly be useful.
What I meant is basically not the level of talent, or physical abilities, but rather a style. Those crazy-coloured outfits of K/S and O/S, the OTT lifts, the City lights which was the basis for O/S's grotesque programs, as well as for K/S's Pagliacci, Gliere of O/S and B/S - this is what I find very similar.
As for B/S being a highlight - basically I meant that besides their undoubted qualities they skated in time of a wider TV coverage of skating, plus availability of many to see skaters at GPs, unlike in V/V or M/D time when if not at Sk.Canda & Sk. America, than there basically were 2 big annual international competitions where one could see Soviet/Russian skaters - Worlds and Euros.
Surely everyone is different, but if someone sees a similarity between 2 or 3 things - than there is some point in it. Why starting such a thread then? :))))

I'll also add that I absolutely hated when they called Mukhortova/Trankov the clones of Totmianina/Marinin in the beginning of their work with Vasiliev, bit I certainly see why some people considered that a fact ;)