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Vagabond
12-08-2011, 01:30 AM
IIRC the skaters you mentioned here went under the microscope much later- after success at the senior level (not a whole lot for Zhang though)- than the young skaters we are discussing here.

Seriously?

Sarah Hughes won a medal at Worlds when she was younger than Sotnikova is now. Rachael Flatt went senior at 13. Caroline Zhang won Junior Worlds when she was 13. If you go back and look in the Archives, you'll see that all of them were getting more criticism at the time than Sotnikova is now.

Come to think of it, I think I've seen more criticism here of second- or third-tier American skaters like Vanessa Lam and Yasmin Siraj than of Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva.

Vash01
12-08-2011, 05:50 AM
Seriously?

Sarah Hughes won a medal at Worlds when she was younger than Sotnikova is now. Rachael Flatt went senior at 13. Caroline Zhang won Junior Worlds when she was 13. If you go back and look in the Archives, you'll see that all of them were getting more criticism at the time than Sotnikova is now.

Come to think of it, I think I've seen more criticism here of second- or third-tier American skaters like Vanessa Lam and Yasmin Siraj than of Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva.

Sarah Hughes was not criticized much; instead, she was praised because she always skated clean. Caroline was viewed as the future after she turned senior. Rachel Flatt was criticized only for not having a certain kind of body. All these skaters had received huge praise. Even Sarah Hughes, with her flutzes and ur's was praised for her 2002 OGM LP skate. I don't recall any of them being grilled the way Sot and to some extent Liza are being grilled here.

burntBREAD
12-08-2011, 06:03 AM
Really? I always see people questioning Hughes' gold medal because of all those problems you pointed to. A lot of people thought she did not deserve 4th after the SP. Zhang was always criticized for her poor technique and lack of speed.

Vash01
12-08-2011, 06:13 AM
Really? I always see people questioning Hughes' gold medal because of all those problems you pointed to. A lot of people thought she did not deserve 4th after the SP. Zhang was always criticized for her poor technique and lack of speed.

I did not believe that Hughes should have placed 4th in the SP and I did not believe she should have won the OGM, but many people seemed to think her LP performance alone was enough to give her the gold. Of course there were some that thought like me but she had many supporters too. They were even willing to ignore the ur jumps, the flutz, saying it was not as bad as it had been in the past. Probably after it was clear that Hughes could not skate at a high level as a pro (could not even do a triple jump), she got more criticism. Leading up to the 2002 Olympics she was viewed as someone with great potential (which was true at that point), and she did not receive harsh criticism. Of course when the 6.0 system was in place, skaters got away with ur's and flutzes a lot more easily, and Sarah was awarded the OGM for her 'clean' performance with flawed jumps.

Zhang lasted a couple of years on the senior circuit (it may have been just one or two- I don't remember exactly when) I think before she started getting the criticism for her mule kick, but I don't recall it being as harsh as what Adelina is getting here, and I am not even a fan of Adelina. When Zhang kept losing in competitions that's when the critics became harder on her.

I am comparing that with what the two Russian ladies are getting in their first senior GPs. Perhaps it would be better to watch them in at least one more GP series (next season) before grilling them. They have lots of time to improve.

burntBREAD
12-08-2011, 06:44 AM
Zhang is still on the senior circuit and has been since the 2007-2008 season, which makes that...5 years this season.

briancoogaert
12-08-2011, 09:51 AM
In what universe Tuk's jumps are small? And she telegraphs her 3Lz-3T only (and I think she has a full right to do so), all the rest she jumps out of nothing.
Seriously, it's not even funny.
Out of nothing ? :confused:
I wouldn't call her jumps telegraphed, but for sure, there is no transition into them and the entrance is what we learn as young skater (crossover, 3turn) :

The Flip (http://youtu.be/YbfYN7y82xo?t=1m18s)
2Axel/3Toe (http://youtu.be/YbfYN7y82xo?t=1m30s)
3Loop (http://youtu.be/YbfYN7y82xo?t=2m34s)
3Sal (http://youtu.be/YbfYN7y82xo?t=3m53s)...

Anyway, she is young and I have no problem with it. She will improve with time. Her jumping technique is really good, and I prefer to watch beautiful jumps with classical entrance, instead of awful jumps out of nothing.

briancoogaert
12-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Sarah Hughes was not criticized much; instead, she was praised because she always skated clean.
I remember french commentator (Philippe Pelissier, Eurosport) saying something like this at 2000 Worlds : "it's amazing what she can do, the problem is that none of her jumps are triple !"
Here on FSU, Caroline Zhang, Alissa Czisny, Sarah Hughes and others have been criticized for their poor jumping technique, which is fair, IMO. lol
I don't remember about Rachael Flatt. She's been criticized much, but I don't remmeber about her jumping technique.

Cheylana
12-08-2011, 02:15 PM
I am not sure if they are "being touted as the ZOMG".
They certainly were/are being touted here by quite a few posters on FSU. Leading to backlash by others on FSU.

IIRC the skaters you mentioned here went under the microscope much later- after success at the senior level (not a whole lot for Zhang though)- than the young skaters we are discussing here. I am pleasantly surprised by the crop of young lady skaters in Russia, and I would just like to wait and see how they develop, instead of trying to cut them down right now. I also don't remember a 15 year old Kimmie or a 15 year old Sasha being criticized as harshly as these skaters are, right now.
It usually starts as the youngster being touted as the next great thing, and then shortly thereafter the backlash starts building. I recall it with pretty much all the skaters I mentioned.

Kimmie had the nerve to steal Kwan's thunder at 2005 Nationals with her underrotated triple axel, and then the criticism started about her toe axel, underrotated triple-triples, etc.

Sasha had lousy edges, lousy ice coverage.

Caroline had wow spins but lousy jump technique and lots of underrotations, was slow and didn't have any variety in the kind of music she uses for her programs (this last criticism was launched at her even before she turned senior).

The criticism about Hughes' mule kick and underrotated triples is pretty well documented. I don't know that she was ripped to shreds on day one because people were more focused on MK at the time and Hughes was just one of a few baby ballerinas competing to be the heir apparent to Kwan; nobody at the time touted her to be the very next OGM. As Hughes became more of a threat, the criticisms started to swell.

Anyway...the above criticisms are just what I remember. :)

Maofan7
12-09-2011, 04:12 PM
Adelina is currently competing in the Golden Spin tournament in Zagreb and did in fact try out a different combination - a 3Tx3T!!. Whilst she under-rotated the second 3T, she is at least experimenting

alchemy void
12-09-2011, 05:18 PM
I'm fairly certain Adelina + her coaching team have the best understanding of what combinations she should attempt.