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bek
12-07-2011, 04:16 PM
I agree with Louis' assessment on Sotnikova's combos, but disagree (mildly) on his assessment on Tuk's combos. I could never tell Sotnikova's flips and lutzes apart, and the back end 3loop is always awkward looking. -2 even when clean for me. Tuk's jumps are technically clean, but (1) they are small; (2) they are telegraphed and I don't like the way she looks down on the ice as she sets up; and (3) she lands with a sideways lean that reminds me of Yuna Kim. Probably +1 at best for me.

People who have seen Tuk's jumps live say they aren't lacking in height, remember Tukt is tiny as they come.

jiggs
12-07-2011, 04:40 PM
Slightly OT, but what exactly is her injury?

As far as I know it is some kind of cyst in her knee. It is still there but not causing her as much pain as last season. I guess this is why she has not had surgery over the summer. She took a long break instead to heal and only got back on the ice mid August.

Vash01
12-07-2011, 04:44 PM
Come again?



Figure Skating Jumps in Competition (http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html)

Taking off from an inside edge on a lutz is cause for -2 or -3 GOE and means that the final GOE must be negative (assuming it's spotted by the judge, of course).

A weak landing position is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (though other, positive factors may be considered as well).

Poor speed, height, distance, and/or air position is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (though, again, positive factors may be considered as well).

Underrotation is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (subject to other factors).

No one seems to dispute Louis' description of her 3Z+3R.

How would you justify giving anything higher than a -3? :confused:

By your assessment she should get -7 GOE! Sounds like the worst jumper in the world to me, by that assessment. She is still a talented skater that can land the jumps, and has the potential to become a very good skater, and she is only 15. All she has to do is fix a few problems.

I am wondering if some posters here are being so harsh toward Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva because they are Russian? I don't see that kind of microscopic criticism of US skaters....just a thought.

Vagabond
12-07-2011, 05:02 PM
By your assessment she should get -7 GOE! Sounds like the worst jumper in the world to me, by that assessment. She is still a talented skater that can land the jumps, and has the potential to become a very good skater, and she is only 15. All she has to do is fix a few problems.

I am wondering if some posters here are being so harsh toward Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva because they are Russian? I don't see that kind of microscopic criticism of US skaters....just a thought.

You are dodging the issue, probably because you don't have an explanation for how you'd justify giving her anything other than a -3 (the lowest possible mark). If you agree that she flutzes, the highest mark you could legitimately give her is a -1, and that's only possible if you factor in things like the height of her jumps or a difficult entry or exit.

The fact that Sotnikova is talented doesn't mean that she shouldn't be getting a -3 for the particular element Louis was discussing.

And, finally, throwing out the nationalism card is an obvious sign that you can't back up what you're saying.

If you think that American posters don't apply the same "microscopic" scrutiny to American skaters, then you've never paid close attention to the threads about Czisny or Nagasu, to name just two.

For goodness' sake, Louis was comparing Sotnikova to Tuktamysheva, and said that Tutktamysheva was "a million times better." Isn't it possible to prefer one Russian skater to another? And Louis explains he thinks Sotnikova should be marked in a certain way on a particular element. That's more than can be said for you.

The young Russian skaters are being criticized because they're talented but imperfect. Back when the Crapova Sisters were winning medals at Russian Nationals, posters here weren't lingering long over their imperfections. There would have been no point in doing so.

Louis
12-07-2011, 05:39 PM
Just to clarify, I think Tukt's jump technique (only) is a million times better. I don't really have an overall preference between Tukt and Sotnikova.

hanca
12-07-2011, 06:19 PM
I am wondering if some posters here are being so harsh toward Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva because they are Russian? I don't see that kind of microscopic criticism of US skaters....just a thought.

I usually hate when people appear to have 'a chip on their shoulder', but saying that, as an outsider who has nothing in common with Russia, I do feel that Russian skaters can be sometimes perceived in less favourable way by people on this forum, than if the same technique/program/costume was presented by a non Russian skater. Just my personal opinion.

Vash01
12-07-2011, 06:58 PM
I usually hate when people appear to have 'a chip on their shoulder', but saying that, as an outsider who has nothing in common with Russia, I do feel that Russian skaters can be sometimes perceived in less favourable way by people on this forum, than if the same technique/program/costume was presented by a non Russian skater. Just my personal opinion.


I am not Russian either. I am a fan of figure skating, regardless of the nationality of the skater. It's just something I have noticed over the years. May be it's the cost of success that they are judged more harshly by fans. They expect more from the Russians, while others are forgiven. The Russian ladies (singles) were the weakest over the decades. Now with a big crop of talented young ladies perhaps they are attracting more attention, although there is no real success yet. Slutskaya and Butyrskaya's successes were more of an exception IMO, compared to what the Russians achieved in the other 3 disciplines. Irina & Maria did have their detractors of course, but they had fans too.

hanca
12-07-2011, 07:03 PM
I am not Russian either. I am a fan of figure skating, regardless of the nationality of the skater. It's just something I have noticed over the years. May be it's the cost of success that they are judged more harshly by fans. They expect more from the Russians, while others are forgiven. The Russian ladies (singles) were the weakest over the decades. Now with a big crop of talented young ladies perhaps they are attracting more attention, although there is no real success yet. Slutskaya and Butyrskaya's successes were more of an exception IMO, compared to what the Russians achieved in the other 3 disciplines. Irina & Maria did have their detractors of course, but they had fans too.

But this is not only in ladies. I noticed the same in pairs and in dance too...

Vash01
12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
But this is not only in ladies. I noticed the same in pairs and in dance too...

I had meant it to apply to all disciplines. I pointed out the ladies because this is the most recent. I agree about pairs and dance (and men too)- about being judged to a higher standard by fans. I could give specific examples, but I don't want to start a fight here. :)

arakwafan2006
12-07-2011, 08:43 PM
The road to mediocrity begins with the first decision. We as spectators only get a glimpse of a skaters ability. Mirai, to my knowledge is fully capable of doing a lutz. She is an amazing athelete and should continue to look at her bigger picture. Miria is a fighter and owes it to herself to not settle.

As for Adelina, why on earth would someone try and scale her back in her first year out? I mean, can the girl learn? To Urmanov's point, puberty as brutal to her as a fricken Roman Guard and left her with a totally new body to work with. With that being said, she deserves to walk through a valley in her young career. She'll learn so much more from it than taking an easy way out.

Cheylana
12-07-2011, 10:18 PM
I am wondering if some posters here are being so harsh toward Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva because they are Russian? I don't see that kind of microscopic criticism of US skaters....just a thought.
I don't know, off the top of my head, Meissner, Flatt, Hughes, Cohen and Zhang have been taken to the woodshed (and in many cases, deservedly so) for their technique issues on various jumps. I think the issue is moreso that Tukt and Adelina are youngsters being touted as the ZOMG! Next! Great! Thing!, and so under the microscope they go.

hanca
12-07-2011, 10:48 PM
I think the issue is moreso that Tukt and Adelina are youngsters being touted as the ZOMG! Next! Great! Thing!, and so under the microscope they go.

I am not sure if they are "being touted as the ZOMG". The fact is that the let the skating speak for them, and they did win everything there was to win on the junior level. I know that it doesn't mean anything...let's look at Flat, Zhang and this season also Nagasu. If Sotnikova or Tuktamysheva put on weight, or get injured, or have too drastic changes in puberty, they may never reach their full potential. But I really don't understand why some posters seem to have the need to kick them down now. Sometimes it really feels like being Russian= having outomatic stroke against you (just here on this forum). :rolleyes: But as I said, that's my personal opinion.

Fashionista
12-07-2011, 11:37 PM
I agree with Louis' assessment on Sotnikova's combos, but disagree (mildly) on his assessment on Tuk's combos. I could never tell Sotnikova's flips and lutzes apart, and the back end 3loop is always awkward looking. -2 even when clean for me. Tuk's jumps are technically clean, but (1) they are small; (2) they are telegraphed and I don't like the way she looks down on the ice as she sets up; and (3) she lands with a sideways lean that reminds me of Yuna Kim. Probably +1 at best for me.

In what universe Tuk's jumps are small? And she telegraphs her 3Lz-3T only (and I think she has a full right to do so), all the rest she jumps out of nothing.
Seriously, it's not even funny.

Vash01
12-07-2011, 11:41 PM
I don't know, off the top of my head, Meissner, Flatt, Hughes, Cohen and Zhang have been taken to the woodshed (and in many cases, deservedly so) for their technique issues on various jumps. I think the issue is moreso that Tukt and Adelina are youngsters being touted as the ZOMG! Next! Great! Thing!, and so under the microscope they go.


IIRC the skaters you mentioned here went under the microscope much later- after success at the senior level (not a whole lot for Zhang though)- than the young skaters we are discussing here. I am pleasantly surprised by the crop of young lady skaters in Russia, and I would just like to wait and see how they develop, instead of trying to cut them down right now. I also don't remember a 15 year old Kimmie or a 15 year old Sasha being criticized as harshly as these skaters are, right now.

Macassar88
12-08-2011, 12:16 AM
In what universe Tuk's jumps are small? And she telegraphs her 3Lz-3T only (and I think she has a full right to do so), all the rest she jumps out of nothing.
Seriously, it's not even funny.

The thing is that she does transitions out of the jumps, but not really into them.