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briancoogaert
12-06-2011, 06:34 PM
We are talking about 14 & 15 year olds here. Why are they being held to such a high standard when skaters much older than them have their flaws as well?
It's better to fix any problem now. ;)

Triple Butz
12-06-2011, 07:25 PM
Does the visible squat leading into the triple loop not bother anyone else?

Or the hunching forward to pick in for the triple toe?

IMO, her technique is as jarring as Caroline Zhang's mule kick. The jump is nice in the air, but the takeoff is awful and the landing often wobbles from outside edge to inside edge.

Maybe it's just me. :confused:

Re: The flutz/loop I think most of us agree the combo needs to be ditched in favor of another.

Re: The double axel/triple toe, I think her reach back is pretty normal.

Re: Comparing her to Zhang...Really? :yikes:

I'm not a fan of Sotnikova, I actually find her quite boring, but I can't deny that (when she's on) many of her jumps have fantastic height and flow so I just find your critique a little OTT. :)

KingaG
12-06-2011, 07:50 PM
:confused:

Caro is injured and can't land the 3z. It will probably come back when she's better.



Just a question - is Kostner's lack of 3z due to the injury? She has not have it for 2 seasons now. And she can do 3f. I am just curious. Is it injury, or did she lose it? Or maybe this element is very unstable so she decided to omit it on purpose? Anyone knows?

jiggs
12-06-2011, 08:07 PM
She is still not advised to do the lutz by her doctors. AFAIK, they allowed her to practice her flip just before Euros this year. I remember she was only allowed to do a few per practice session, so the ones she did had to be perfect as she couldn't do it over and over again.

I suppose it is the same for her lutz - I saw her practicing it, but only 1-2 attempts per session. She landed it beautifully but I guess it is not ready for competition yet due to lack of practice.

UDelpairs2012
12-07-2011, 01:10 AM
The flutz + the squat + off-kilter air position + usually some level of underrotation should warrant -3, IMO. No better than -2.

The double axel-triple toe, I'll say in the example given that the good qualities of the jump (height, distance) do offset the problems with it, and I'd probably give it a 0 GOE. But I'd question positive GOE for a jump that's off-axis, has a labored takeoff, and a wobbly landing edge.

I don't dislike Sotnikova. I just think she has major technique problems that are getting glossed over. In addition to the combination issues, she has hammer-throwing technique on the flip and a really weird arm position on the salchow takeoff. I suspect these will continue to cause her problems as she grows.

OTOH, Tutk - who is not (yet) as good of a skater and has programs that do not maximize her potential - has jumps that mostly belong in an instructional video. I'd put her triple lutz-triple toe up against any that has been done, ever.

Thank the dear lord up above you aren't a judge!

Vash01
12-07-2011, 05:43 AM
Thank the dear lord up above you aren't a judge!

or a technical specialist

VALuvsMKwan
12-07-2011, 05:47 AM
Thank the dear lord up above you aren't a judge!


or a technical specialist

What's wrong with his assessment?

Vash01
12-07-2011, 05:53 AM
What's wrong with his assessment?

-3GOE on landed jumps

judgejudy27
12-07-2011, 06:10 AM
She cant do so. She is only going to win at this point by outjumping the top senior ladies, like Elizaveta has been doing.

Vagabond
12-07-2011, 06:51 AM
What's wrong with his assessment?


-3GOE on landed jumps

Come again?


The flutz + the squat + off-kilter air position + usually some level of underrotation should warrant -3, IMO. No better than -2.

Figure Skating Jumps in Competition (http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html)

Taking off from an inside edge on a lutz is cause for -2 or -3 GOE and means that the final GOE must be negative (assuming it's spotted by the judge, of course).

A weak landing position is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (though other, positive factors may be considered as well).

Poor speed, height, distance, and/or air position is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (though, again, positive factors may be considered as well).

Underrotation is cause for -1 or -2 GOE (subject to other factors).

No one seems to dispute Louis' description of her 3Z+3R.

How would you justify giving anything higher than a -3? :confused:

Marco
12-07-2011, 08:00 AM
I agree with Louis' assessment on Sotnikova's combos, but disagree (mildly) on his assessment on Tuk's combos. I could never tell Sotnikova's flips and lutzes apart, and the back end 3loop is always awkward looking. -2 even when clean for me. Tuk's jumps are technically clean, but (1) they are small; (2) they are telegraphed and I don't like the way she looks down on the ice as she sets up; and (3) she lands with a sideways lean that reminds me of Yuna Kim. Probably +1 at best for me.

briancoogaert
12-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Just a question - is Kostner's lack of 3z due to the injury? She has not have it for 2 seasons now. And she can do 3f. I am just curious. Is it injury, or did she lose it? Or maybe this element is very unstable so she decided to omit it on purpose? Anyone knows?


She is still not advised to do the lutz by her doctors. AFAIK, they allowed her to practice her flip just before Euros this year. I remember she was only allowed to do a few per practice session, so the ones she did had to be perfect as she couldn't do it over and over again.

I suppose it is the same for her lutz - I saw her practicing it, but only 1-2 attempts per session. She landed it beautifully but I guess it is not ready for competition yet due to lack of practice.
She can do the 3Lutz. I think jiggs is right about advices from doctor.
Here is a perfect attempt at 2011 Euros :
http://youtu.be/HjhJcgNCyG0?t=5m48s

Maofan7
12-07-2011, 11:11 AM
No one seems to dispute Louis' description of her 3Z+3R.

How would you justify giving anything higher than a -3? :confused:

Is the reason why some people use the abbreviation 3R for a triple loop rather than 3L due to the fact that a loop is known as a "Rittberger" (i.e. after Werner Rittberger, the inventer of the loop jump)? Or is there some other reason?

icenut84
12-07-2011, 11:47 AM
She is still not advised to do the lutz by her doctors. AFAIK, they allowed her to practice her flip just before Euros this year. I remember she was only allowed to do a few per practice session, so the ones she did had to be perfect as she couldn't do it over and over again.

I suppose it is the same for her lutz - I saw her practicing it, but only 1-2 attempts per session. She landed it beautifully but I guess it is not ready for competition yet due to lack of practice.

Slightly OT, but what exactly is her injury?


Is the reason why some people use the abbreviation 3R for a triple loop rather than 3L due to the fact that a loop is known as a "Rittberger" (i.e. after Werner Rittberger, the inventer of the loop jump)? Or is there some other reason?

Yes, that's why. It's still called a Rittberger in some countries too, I believe.

Vagabond
12-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Is the reason why some people use the abbreviation 3R for a triple loop rather than 3L due to the fact that a loop is known as a "Rittberger" (i.e. after Werner Rittberger, the inventer of the loop jump)? Or is there some other reason?

That and the fact that an "L" could refer to either a loop or a lutz.