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zebobes
12-01-2011, 01:26 PM
That's incredible. Would it be practical for her to ever include it in a program? She has all her triples except the axel, right? If she did a 7 triple program, she would be done with almost half her triples in one jumping pass!

Sylvia
12-01-2011, 03:43 PM
There's also ongoing discussion of Gracie Gold's 3-3-3 combo in practice in the US Ladies thread where I've posted two clips (thanks for the heads up, Doris!): http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3388476&postcount=464

Susan M
12-01-2011, 04:39 PM
Under 6.0, a judge could give an extra 0.1 to the lady who did a 2t/3t vs a 3t/2t.

Yeah, the double-triple combination has pretty much disappeared under COP. It is harder and should be given more points.

I don't think 3T-3T is undervalued today, since it does get more points than 3Z-2T. If anything, I'd say it is over-valued. Before COP, judges had little respect for the 3T-3T combo and usually gave it a lot less credit than a 3Lz-2T. This was evident in short program marks where ladies who did not attempt a lutz were generally put below those who did the lutz combination. Judges did like to see it in freeskates, though, as long as the skater also included the harder triples.

Vash01
12-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Yeah, the double-triple combination has pretty much disappeared under COP. It is harder and should be given more points.

I don't think 3T-3T is undervalued today, since it does get more points than 3Z-2T. If anything, I'd say it is over-valued. Before COP, judges had little respect for the 3T-3T combo and usually gave it a lot less credit than a 3Lz-2T. This was evident in short program marks where ladies who did not attempt a lutz were generally put below those who did the lutz combination. Judges did like to see it in freeskates, though, as long as the skater also included the harder triples.

ITA. A toe lop is the easiest jump in FS. The harder triples always got higher marks before the COP- just another example of how COP is discouraging harder jumps. That is not to say a 3t-3t is easy, but a lutz (and a flip) is a much more difficult jump. Not every skater can do it correctly, so when someone does a combination with these difficult jumps, she should be rewarded for it. A 3A-2t combination should be rewarded even more than just the sum of points for those two jumps.

berthesghost
12-02-2011, 03:27 PM
ITA. A toe lop is the easiest jump in FS. The harder triples always got higher marks before the COP- just another example of how COP is discouraging harder jumps. That is not to say a 3t-3t is easy, but a lutz (and a flip) is a much more difficult jump. Not every skater can do it correctly, so when someone does a combination with these difficult jumps, she should be rewarded for it. A 3A-2t combination should be rewarded even more than just the sum of points for those two jumps.Ita but I also think that in this context, we need to look at how much the sp and how it's judged has changed under cop. Failing to execute a required element is not as severly punished, and the sp is no longer a test to weed out the top tier from the others. Under cop, one can come from the second group and still win. The whole idea of the sp as heat is gone. Now it's just a 2.5 minute lp they skate the day before the 4 min lp. This is a big reason why the judges are less severe in judging a 3t/3t vs a 3z/2t then they were under 6.0. The whole idea of the sp as a sort of level ground qualifying round ( can she do a 2x, can she do a 3z, etc) is all but gone.

David21
12-03-2011, 05:57 PM
Yeah, the double-triple combination has pretty much disappeared under COP. It is harder and should be given more points.

I don't think 3T-3T is undervalued today, since it does get more points than 3Z-2T. If anything, I'd say it is over-valued. Before COP, judges had little respect for the 3T-3T combo and usually gave it a lot less credit than a 3Lz-2T. This was evident in short program marks where ladies who did not attempt a lutz were generally put below those who did the lutz combination. Judges did like to see it in freeskates, though, as long as the skater also included the harder triples.


Yes, this is very true. Under 6.0, judges wanted to see the skaters doing the 3lutz-combo, while they didn't give that much respect to a 3toe-3toe in the SP, but they were happy to see any triple-triple (even if "only) a 3toe-3toe-combo) in the freeskate. Now skaters are getting more points for the triple-triple-combo than for the 3L-2T no matter where and when.

But in fact, this is one of the changes in CoP that I like because I do think it is harder to do a 3toe-3toe combo because putting a(ny) triple jump at the 2nd part of the combination is so hard for the (most) ladies that it offsets the difficulty of the first jump in a 3L-2T combo. :)

gkelly
12-03-2011, 06:11 PM
Well, after the 1997 season (when 3-3 was allowed at all in the ladies' SP) there was always the option to do 3T+3T and solo 3Lz.

But for the judges I guess it depends what skill they valued more -- the ability to do a triple lutz (preferably with a clearly correct takeoff), or the ability to carry enough speed and control through the landing of any triple to put a triple toe on the end.

Triple Butz
12-03-2011, 11:47 PM
Amber Corwin and Jenny Kirk were probably the first two skaters who ditched their 3 (f)lutz (>) combinations once COP came into affect in 2004-5.

I think the fact that the skater can "default" to 3 toe-2 toe without automatic -3 GOE should they be not in the best position to complete the second 3 toe is another reason for its increasing popularity in the short program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em9hs8diXEI

Amber did the 3t/3t in her short every year since 1997. She actually kept her flutz as the solo jump.

Seerek
03-29-2012, 05:22 PM
quick update - 11 of the 30 ladies at 2012 Worlds had the the triple toe-triple toe as their planned combination in the Short Program

arakwafan2006
03-29-2012, 11:02 PM
If Midori Ito was skating today, she would get +3 GOE every time she did the 3t-3t (which means every LP) or the 3A. Sorry, couldn't help reminiscing.

I have to say that you're right. I mean, under rotations were just something she didnt do