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View Full Version : The triple toe-triple toe combination in ladies figure skating



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nynyfee
11-30-2011, 06:47 PM
Ito would have been the first (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd6tfcjt8G4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL44C69A2E4CA5C79D) to do it at Worlds. She was also the first female skater to do it in competition at all, I think 1981 Junior Worlds.

I'm not aware of Zayak or Biellmann ever attempting that combination.

Wow she's good!

Seerek
11-30-2011, 08:15 PM
Here's an example where the lady not only did a 3 toe-3 toe as her combination jump, but also did the 3 lutz out of steps as her individual solo triple jump in the short program

Krisztina Czako - 1997 World Championships Short Program (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1tOf8uW1A)

berthesghost
11-30-2011, 09:22 PM
I think you don't see more skaters attempting it because they are not consistent with their speed coming out of the first triple toe and are likely to get downgraded on the second jump.

I've always wondered why some skaters who have better edge jumps don't try a triple loop/double loop as their combo rather than a flutz/lip - toe combo in their SP.I think your first sentenced was the answer to your second one. the loop is harder to not cheat than. The toe when it's the 2nd jump in the combo. I think Mao is the only one even trying it now.

kukkura
11-30-2011, 09:37 PM
Some skaters have a strong 3t-3t although they often struggle with harder triples, like Sarah Hecken. And Lenka Kulovana did some good 3t-3t's while her only other triple was salchow.

smarts1
11-30-2011, 09:47 PM
It's a safer combination that any lutz or flip combination. At the very worst they can turn it into a 3t-2t and avoid a fall. That's why it's so popular.

BTW who was the first lady to land a 3t-3t in a world championship? Was it Elaine Zayak or Denise Biellman or Midori Ito? Those are the only ones I can think of as capable of doing it.

Exactly. I still think a triple lutz-double toe or a triple flip-double toe should be worth more than the triple toe-triple toe. Come on. How many ladies can do a true triple lutz compared to a triple toe-triple toe? A triple toe-triple toe is still easier than doing a triple lutz or a triple lutz because technically, if you can do a triple toe, you could technically do a triple toe-triple toe.

gkelly
11-30-2011, 10:12 PM
Exactly. I still think a triple lutz-double toe or a triple flip-double toe should be worth more than the triple toe-triple toe. Come on. How many ladies can do a true triple lutz compared to a triple toe-triple toe? A triple toe-triple toe is still easier than doing a triple lutz or a triple lutz because technically, if you can do a triple toe, you could technically do a triple toe-triple toe.

That's not strictly true, because many skaters can do a triple toe but not with enough speed and control to get another triple toe off the landing.

3T+3T is certainly the easiest triple-triple, and it is easier for some skaters than triple lutz or flip, but I would say that those are a minority.

How many ladies have ever done a 3T+3T in competition? At this point, maybe it's getting close to a hundred total over the past 30 years, most of them in the past ten. Then subtract all the skaters who attempted it but didn't land cleanly.

How many ladies have ever done a 3Lz in competition? Many hundreds over the past 30 years, most in the last 20. Then subtract all the skaters who attempted but never landed it cleanly or never took off from the correct edge.

Same with 3F.

You'll still end up with a lot more who have landed 3Lz and/or 3F than who have landed 3T+3T.

Is that because the rules or expectations encouraged them to develop the harder jump before developing the 3-3 combination? Yes, that's probably one factor.

But go watch some novices or mid-ranked juniors or weak seniors landing 3T and ask yourself whether they look like technically, if they can do a triple toe, they could technically do a triple toe-triple toe. In most cases, I bet the answer will be no. And some of those who don't look like they can pull off the 3-3 can actually do 3F and/or 3Lz.

smarts1
11-30-2011, 11:41 PM
But if you look at the proportion of skaters who can only do a triple toe-triple toe to the proportion of skaters who can do a flip and a lutz, there are many more skaters who can do only triple toe-triple toes.

Vash01
12-01-2011, 12:56 AM
Ito would have been the first (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd6tfcjt8G4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL44C69A2E4CA5C79D) to do it at Worlds. She was also the first female skater to do it in competition at all, I think 1981 Junior Worlds.

I'm not aware of Zayak or Biellmann ever attempting that combination.

She was so incredible! The 3t-3t combination was like nothing for her. She was may be 20 years ahead of her time.

gkelly
12-01-2011, 01:37 AM
But if you look at the proportion of skaters who can only do a triple toe-triple toe to the proportion of skaters who can do a flip and a lutz, there are many more skaters who can do only triple toe-triple toes.

Based on having actually done them in competition? No way.

Do you want to narrow down a time period so we can gather some data?

smarts1
12-01-2011, 02:32 AM
This era, especially skaters who haven't gone to Worlds, but have skated nationally like Brittney Rizo at 2009 Nationals. And skaters who do both the flip and the lutz. Not one or the other.

But even then, at 98 Olympics, Surya did a triple toe-triple toe in the short because the lutz and flip were giving her tons of problems.

briancoogaert
12-01-2011, 09:13 AM
This era, especially skaters who haven't gone to Worlds, but have skated nationally like Brittney Rizo at 2009 Nationals. And skaters who do both the flip and the lutz. Not one or the other.

But even then, at 98 Olympics, Surya did a triple toe-triple toe in the short because the lutz and flip were giving her tons of problems.
Oh please, not that example.
Surya had tons of problems with the Lutz and Flip because she broke her achille's heel. :rolleyes:
Few years later (2004), she was still able to do perfect 3Lz in exhibitions.
She has never had problems with Lutz and Flip before and was attempting 3Lz/3T combos back in 1989.

I'm sorry to say so, but I agree with gkelly. 3T/3T is not easier for Ladies, because the first triple need to be perfect, with a good glide and a perfect body position.
And if you want examples of very good jumpers who can't do a 3/3 with no cheat : Julia Sebestyen and Vanessa Gusmeroli. Also, Michelle Kwan found the Lutz and Flip so much more easier than the 3T/3T.

Marco
12-01-2011, 10:17 AM
3lutz2toe vs 3toe3toe

Is the extra difficulty of doing a 3lutz instead of a 3toe offset by doing a 3toe instead of a 2toe AT THE BACK END OF A COMBINATION JUMP?

In my mind, absolutely. With a 3lutz2toe, the difficulty is mostly focused on the 1st jump. Once that's done, the 2toe is relatively easy even if the 3lutz landing is slightly off. With a 3toe3toe, the difficulty is more evenly spread out and you have to be perfect on the first to nail the second. Plus, there are definitely more skaters who can land lutzes and flips but not 3toe3toes, than the other way round - although this is much more apparent in the older days. Since Yamaguchi, all world ladies medalists have landed a lutz or flip in the free skate to medal but not all have landed a 3/3.

In the old days, the way to go seems to be to conquer all the jumps before trying 3/3s (except Thomas...). Under COP, where there is a limit to jumping pass, skaters have to be smart with what they try, and there are more skaters like Lepisto, Hecken, etc.

DORISPULASKI
12-01-2011, 10:44 AM
Gracie Gold is working on a 3T3T3Lp

I just saw this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWrN5LHG9A&feature=feedu

MikiAndoFan#1
12-01-2011, 10:51 AM
Gracie Gold is working on a 3T3T3Lp

I just saw this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjWrN5LHG9A&feature=feedu

That was a 3Lz+3T+3Lo. :) But wow, this girl is amazing!

DORISPULASKI
12-01-2011, 10:58 AM
Dear me. I just saw it posted as Gracie's triple triple triple, and didn't even think to look at the entries. I was just struck slackjawed by the size of the jumps.