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RobinA
11-30-2011, 03:08 AM
I defended his PCS last season. But this season I am actually becoming a fan. The effortlessness of his blade and movement is almost ridiculous.

With his skating quality and programs (and now more often than not landing the quads), he really does deserve to have a lot of breathing room against almost the whole lackluster mens field these recent seasons. The only exceptions I would make would be for Takahashi and a very "on" Abbott and Kozuka.

My story exactly. I went from, Patrick Chan - Over-rated Canadian; to, Patrick Chan - Yeah, he does deserve higher PCS; to, Yep, he's the best out there by a mile; and finally, Five fall cushion? I got no problem with that.

Vash01
11-30-2011, 05:39 AM
My story exactly. I went from, Patrick Chan - Over-rated Canadian; to, Patrick Chan - Yeah, he does deserve higher PCS; to, Yep, he's the best out there by a mile; and finally, Five fall cushion? I got no problem with that.

That last statement means there should not be a competition at all, that no one else can win. It is bad for the sport. Chan has the best skating skills and many other skills, but if he cannot consistently land his jumps, he needs to pay for that by placing lower. The problem is with the COP not seeing the program as a whole (though Chan's programs are usually beautiful). May be by 2014 there will be challengers, but if this trend continues, I would be concerned about mens skating. OTOH if that pushes other men to excel in basic skating, transitions, that could be good for the sport. I still believe that unless a skater can do ALL things, which includes difficult jumps, in a program, he should not have that big a cushion. I have no problem with a couple of mistakes, even a fall and a step out plus a small mistake, but not 5 falls.

I remember how boring tennis used to be when Federer was winning every trophy. Things became more interesting when Nadal provided some competition. It did not improve Federer's game IMO but it did make the game more interesting. Competition is always good. Right now Chan's competition needs to be with himself. I think he will take that approach and not stagnate, because I have already seen big improvement in his execution of the programs compared to last year at this time.

The Accordion
11-30-2011, 08:02 AM
Figure skating has survived domination many many times in the past -and in fact dominating skaters have - at times helped create great interest in the sport.

I remember in Torvill and Dean's time -many of my non-skating fan friends taking interest in T and D when all the 6.Os were happening and there was so much buzz about them.

When there are athletes so great that it is difficult for others to beat them - generally they have been great enough for spectators to appreciate them as well.

To name a few--- Torvill and Dean. Yagudin,Gordeeva and Grinkov, Katarina Witt (although not one of my favourites - she did show amazing competitive abilities and garnered a great deal of attention) have dominated figure skating in their time. If they were on - they could beat everyone - even with mistakes or lesser content.

In retrospect - was that so bad for the sport? Or was their greatness exciting and an honour to be able to witness?

I saw the 1984 World Championship - where the audiences were mesmerized so much by Bolero - not just in competition but again when T and D did it in the Exhibition.
There was some talk about T and D not being penalized with a slip in competition - but most of the reaction was amazement at what we had the chance to see.

In seeing Patrick Chan live - I argue that he is another of the greats and the audiences tend to recognize that. Not all of them and not all the time - but he is pretty incredible to see live IMO.

And ultimately the truth is - he is not unbeatable.
We are lucky enough to have another one of the all time greats (IMO) skating against him this year - in Takahashi.

And Fernandez's scores have shown him to be competitive as well.

What everyone has to remember and so many seem to forget - is that EVERYTHING gets marks and because Patrick Chan is great at most things he gains many marks for each aspect of his skating.

He falls on a jump - but along the way rotates most or all of his jumps so that even with the mandatory deduction he still gains many many points.

He falls on footwork - but gets up quickly enough that the judges believe that it only minimally affects his performance. And on top of that he gains so many points for the difficulty of his footwork that he has some cushion.

People keep complaining that because he falls his performance marks should go down or his skating skills marks should go down. But how far?

If he is skating against someone with shallower edges, more crossovers, less complicated or varied turns - should his marks be as low as that skater's because he fell and then got up right away? Especially when you consider that doing more difficult footwork puts you more at risk in the first place?

If he is interpreting the music by skating to every note and throwing himself into the choreography and in pushing himself that way he falls - how much lower do you want his performance mark to be - as low as someone who isn't making as much of an effort/ succeeding in that way?

I just can't buy into the - "he fell x amount of times therefore he cannot win"argument. "Make sure the other guy wins - because he didn't fall as much". If they gain equal points from all aspects of their skating - and Patrick Chan falls more - then yes - the other guy should win.

Patrick Chan's programs are a beautiful example of why I love the "evil" COP.

I don't think COP is perfect - but I would way rather watch a complete skater paying attention to all the details and perhaps falling because of the risk involved.

I guess I am lucky that way. I don't think COP has ruined skating - I think it has forced skaters to skate paying attention to the details that I think make great skating.

I am loving men's skating right now- and so much looking forward to seeing all of them - and most of all Chan and Takahashi!

walei
11-30-2011, 09:02 AM
^ I would rep you so hard if I could.

The only valid time to use the argument that Patrick should not win with falls, is to have every other skaters out there doing the same program as Patrick and stay upright with the same edge quality. Aside from Takahashi or maybe Kozuka I don't see anyone else who could. So if Patrick has numeral fall cushions over other skaters I am totally fine with it.

If Chan falls, and Takahashi skates clean with quads and quad comb, THEN I would argue a Chan win may be unfair. It hasn't happened yet.

alilou
11-30-2011, 09:05 AM
Entire post

ITA with every word of this! :cheer:

(And I also would rep you if I could)

clarie
11-30-2011, 12:39 PM
ITA with every word of this! :cheer:

(And I also would rep you if I could)

:D:D It's ok, I did it for both of us.

Bev Johnston
11-30-2011, 03:53 PM
If Chan falls, and Takahashi skates clean with quads and quad comb, THEN I would argue a Chan win may be unfair. It hasn't happened yet.

No, it hasn't happened yet. And don't get me wrong, I absolutley LOVE Takahashi, but I didn't see one single complaint about his win/high PCS at NHK with a fall and three underrotations. He scored 19 points higher than Patrick did at TEB, and 6 points higher than Patrick at Skate Canada. Patrick is not unbeatable. I just feel like there's a lot of hate directed at Patrick for no other reason than an interview that he gave as a teenager.

l'etoile
11-30-2011, 04:53 PM
Here's the link to Patrick's fun interview by fans at TEB (as posted in the "Orange Team Interviews" thread): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdpuZNqY1Ec
Patrick's answers are interesting and the questions are also witty:) thank you for the link!
I guess those gals are French fans from TEB? -- oh, this is posted in TEB interview thread!


entire post!
Couldn't agree more.

Debrah
11-30-2011, 05:09 PM
Accordian: great post and like the other's said, I would rep you again, but I can't right now...

VarBar
11-30-2011, 08:20 PM
No, it hasn't happened yet. And don't get me wrong, I absolutley LOVE Takahashi, but I didn't see one single complaint about his win/high PCS at NHK with a fall and three underrotations. He scored 19 points higher than Patrick did at TEB, and 6 points higher than Patrick at Skate Canada. Patrick is not unbeatable. I just feel like there's a lot of hate directed at Patrick for no other reason than an interview that he gave as a teenager.

Perhaps no one complained because Takahashi is simply entitled to overscoring. Or perhaps because falls and underrotations are part of the choreography in his particular case.:lol:

The Accordion, nice post.:respec:

professordeb
11-30-2011, 11:56 PM
entire post

Bravo!!!!! Well said, well written and deserving of a Standing Ovation (my highest compliment). You have managed to put into words what many of us have felt but not been able to express nearly so well.

aaron
12-01-2011, 03:44 AM
Bravo!!!!! Well said, well written and deserving of a Standing Ovation (my highest compliment). You have managed to put into words what many of us have felt but not been able to express nearly so well.

ITA :cool:

Sulphur
12-01-2011, 10:42 AM
entire post

Agreed. He earned that cushion.

walei
12-01-2011, 01:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E49QK_Fto5M

Just want to post this cuz I just watched it again. It's his LP at 2011 Canadians, and IMO it's the best men's LP performance of all time.

clarie
12-01-2011, 06:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E49QK_Fto5M

Just want to post this cuz I just watched it again. It's his LP at 2011 Canadians, and IMO it's the best men's LP performance of all time.

I remember that so well, watching it on big screen in my party room, and giving a S.O. afterwards. It was also the best LP I'd ever seen as well, and I remember saying it at the time. Awsome!!!!!