Ross Miner: "... the men's sold out in three minutes after they put up the tickets.."

[MacMadame]

That's what I thought, but when we were discussing the poor attendance at SKAM I was told by more than a few locals that LA does not equal Ontario, and that with traffic the drive would be off-putting.
Wusses! :lol:

I think the reality is that they didn't want to go. There were a ton of local skaters and their families there who train in the area especially Tammy Gambil's group (I think they train in Riverside which is nearby). The announcers talked about them constantly and I recognized some when the announcers didn't mention them.

I think other skaters and their families who trained in LA would have gone if the event was marketed correctly.

I think the problem is that USFS is used to the days when ticket sales didn't really impact profit. Most of the profit came from sponsorships and tv revenue. So it really didn't matter if people showed up for SA or not.

It's possible that economically it still doesn't matter. But I think it matters for other, more intangible, reasons. It matters because it reinforces the idea that "nobody" cares about figure skating and it matters because it is better for the skaters to skate to an audience and feel like people care. Why would someone sponsor figure skating if they went to SA and saw that there were no fans? They sponsor figure skating to get eyeballs on their products. Therefore, eyeballs need to be there in the arena.


The problem is pathetic U.S. attendance in general, whether at Skate America or at Nationals. Arenas are never full, whether they're large or small, in a big city or small one, or on one side of the country or another.
That's not really true though. Nationals does tend to sell out or at least it does for the finals of Senior events. It seems like the GPF when it's in the US also sells out or at least the arena is "full". It's just Skate America that has had dismal attendance since as long as I've been watching it. I think part of the problem is that there is less lead time for it than there is Nationals and it's not as important an event as the GPF.

[UMBS Go Blue]

That's not really true though. Nationals does tend to sell out or at least it does for the finals of Senior eventsYes it is. Having been to U.S. Nationals for the senior ladies' final only in 2001 and for almost all senior events in 2002-2008 and 2010, I can say that this has only been the case for the lower bowl of the arena in the senior ladies' final. The upper tiers of the arenas were patchily full for the senior ladies' final in 2001-2004, but things have been in inexorable decline since.

The sessions besides the senior ladies' final are usually more miss than hit.

[heckles]

* Or, redouble focus on existing demographics. Targeted marketing to target audiences, as mentioned above, is going to be more effective than an expensive mass-media blitz.

Read: all ad dollars should be spent in magazines targeting the gay and knitting communities.

[Seerek]

Didn't they try one season to make Skate America amongst last the 6 GP events (2009)? Does timing in the GP schedule make a difference?

[jlai]

Having looked at 2012 nationals schedule, even a die-hard fan like myself has to think about whether I wanna go. I mean, after getting used to the more compact schedule at regionals (and sectionals) this week, having to wait for highlighted evented spread over so many days (junior ladies at nationals will start on a Tuesday)--that is a real bummer. I don't wanna stay in San Jose for 6 days just to watch Gracie Gold, Hannah Miller (knock on wood they qualify), then wait two or three more days to watch Nagasu or Angela Wang--especially if these are not considered "stars" ala Kween or Cohen.

And especially since 4CC will be in the States too...that will make budget decisions harder

[UDelpairs2012]

Read: all ad dollars should be spent in magazines targeting the gay and knitting communities.

By golly i think we have got something!!!!!:P

[gkelly]

UMBS Go Blue, I don't have time to answer at length right now.

I think your ideas make sense if the primary mission of US Figure Skating were to provide an entertainment product to audiences and earn a profit in the process.

Since that is, at best, its tertiary mission, after producing champions and serving the rest of its members, naturally their priorities will not coincide with those of a marketing strategy that focuses on the desires of outside consumers ahead of the primary stakeholders.

Of course they want to attract audiences and bring in outside money. The question is how best to do so within the context of the sport as sport, as opposed to show business.

Before addressing the question of "modern" music, I'd ask you what you mean by modern in this context. What are some pieces of music that you think would make good competitive programs that are not now allowed (because of vocals) or actively discouraged by the current rules and monitoring processes?

Or is it just a matter of encouraging skaters and coaches to stop being lazy by sticking to the tried and true and encouraging judges to reward them for taking risks?

We've had threads on the topic before. Maybe one of those should be revived or a separate new one started.

Maybe you and I agree completely on the kinds of music that would make good competitive programs. That doesn't help much if the skaters disagree and use new rules to choose music we both hate. Or maybe we disagree completely. Shall we be more specific?

One thing I don't think that USFS should do is allow and encourage international-level skaters to choose music for their competitive programs that would be illegal in international competition.

[Oreo]

That's what I thought, but when we were discussing the poor attendance at SKAM I was told by more than a few locals that LA does not equal Ontario, and that with traffic the drive would be off-putting.

I live in Orange County and hellish traffic is exactly the reason I didn't go. To get out to Ontario on a Friday means taking off work and leaving in the early afternoon.

[skateboy]

If the US had some actual stars, ala Japan, the arenas would fill up. The US doesn't have that now and hasn't for awhile. Why should people come?

[tkaug]

I enjoyed his exhibition program in that Hokkaido(北海道) t-shirt!
I wish he will become a regular for NHK Trophy like Ashley Wagner!

[giselle23]

I don't think the problem is so much the size of the venue but the location. Why did the USFSA choose Ontario, when it doesn't seem to have been able to draw on a local audience? Why not an area that has more of a skating base, like someplace in the Mid West (Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit) or North East (NY Metro, Boston, Hartford).

This is my thought, exactly! I assume that one problem is finding an arena in the big cities during professional hockey season. But many big cities have NHL and minor league teams that skate in different venues. I can't believe that something couldn't be worked out to free one up for the three or four days needed for Skate America.

[overedge]

I also sometimes get the sense - not based on any inside knowledge - that some events are scheduled for a big arena because the venue is a symbol of the importance of the event, not related to the potential attendance. I.e. the organizers would sooner be in Prestigious Well-Known Arena with 17,000 seats rather than Suburban Unknown Arena with 7,000 seats, even if the event could easily sell out and then some in Suburban Unknown Arena.

[MacMadame]

Yes it is. Having been to U.S. Nationals for the senior ladies' final only in 2001 and for almost all senior events in 2002-2008 and 2010, I can say that this has only been the case for the lower bowl of the arena in the senior ladies' final. The upper tiers of the arenas were patchily full for the senior ladies' final in 2001-2004, but things have been in inexorable decline since.
I would say that filling up the lower bowl and then having people in the upper bowl is a reasonable amount of attendance though.


Didn't they try one season to make Skate America amongst last the 6 GP events (2009)? Does timing in the GP schedule make a difference?
One season they mixed the events all up for some reason. As far as I know SA attendance wasn't significantly better.



Of course they want to attract audiences and bring in outside money.

I would say that they don't really car about attracting audiences. It's also a tertiary mission. The main mission is to create Olympic-level athletes that win medals on the International stage. They need money to do that so attracting outside money is a secondary mission.

Attracting an audience may or may not help getting outside money. I think it helps and also I am the audience so I have a vested interesting them caring about this. But I can see why it's farther down on the priorities even if I think this is short-sighted in the long run.


Maybe you and I agree completely on the kinds of music that would make good competitive programs.
But probably not and I think that's important because people seem to agree that music selections are a problem yet when people say what kind of music should be used instead they can't agree. Therefore, I question the basic premise... that music selections are a big issue in the decline of the popularity of skating.


I live in Orange County and hellish traffic is exactly the reason I didn't go. To get out to Ontario on a Friday means taking off work and leaving in the early afternoon.
But you say that like it's a bad thing. You could also look at it as a long weekend and a mini-vacation where you feel like you had a vacation but only had to take off 1 day from work (or if you work somewhere with flexible hours, you just come in for a few hours, leave at noon and don't have to take a vacation day at all).

One way to promote this would be to have vacation packages available with bundled tickets and hotels that maybe included a massage at the hotel's spa or a dinner at a fancy restaurant.

Or maybe a club package that encouraged a lot of people to go who were from the same club and then the club could turn going into a social event. People would carpool, share hotel rooms, etc. and that would keep the costs down plus they'd get discounted tickets and sit together as a club.

Of course, for all I know, some of this went on. But no one advertised Skate America to me and I'm on all sorts of skate fan mailing lists and a member of USFS so I suspect not... it just doesn't seem to be a tradition in the US for fans to go to SA like it seems to be a tradition for fans in Europe to go to TEB. Now maybe it's not really a tradition to go to TEB but it seems that way from reading FSU. :cool:


I also sometimes get the sense - not based on any inside knowledge - that some events are scheduled for a big arena because the venue is a symbol of the importance of the event, not related to the potential attendance. I.e. the organizers would sooner be in Prestigious Well-Known Arena with 17,000 seats rather than Suburban Unknown Arena with 7,000 seats, even if the event could easily sell out and then some in Suburban Unknown Arena.

I don't think this is a factor at all. USFS is somewhat restricted in their choices because a LOC has to bid on an event. They have stated that they want to put the smaller events in smaller markets and have encouraged those markets to bid on events. But they can't award an event to a market that hasn't bid on it.

[overedge]

I don't think this is a factor at all. USFS is somewhat restricted in their choices because a LOC has to bid on an event. They have stated that they want to put the smaller events in smaller markets and have encouraged those markets to bid on events. But they can't award an event to a market that hasn't bid on it.

I know how the bid process works, but the USFS is also the organization that makes the choice among the bids. And I'm just speculating that maybe prestige sometimes wins out over practicality.

[UMBS Go Blue]

I think your ideas make sense if the primary mission of US Figure Skating were to provide an entertainment product to audiences and earn a profit in the process.

Since that is, at best, its tertiary mission, after producing champions and serving the rest of its members, naturally their priorities will not coincide with those of a marketing strategy that focuses on the desires of outside consumers ahead of the primary stakeholders.

Of course they want to attract audiences and bring in outside money. The question is how best to do so within the context of the sport as sport, as opposed to show business.:rofl: So you think that US Figure Skating can fund champion skaters, developmental programs, and local clubs in the long term when the product is clearly not marketable? Does US Figure Skating have sufficient sources of revenue to do all the above without profits from major events and TV rights?


What are some pieces of music that you think would make good competitive programs that are not now allowed (because of vocals) or actively discouraged by the current rules and monitoring processes?

Or is it just a matter of encouraging skaters and coaches to stop being lazy by sticking to the tried and true and encouraging judges to reward them for taking risks?Let's look at a quick sample of music selections from this year's Skate America.

* Phantom of the Opera soundtrack
* Big Bad Voodoo Daddy medley
* My Fair Lady soundtrack
* 20th Century Fox Fanfare / Girls Prefer Diamonds sountrack
* Valse Triste, Sibelius
* Summertime, George Gershwin
* Man in the Iron Mask soundtrack
* Nessun Dorma, Puccini (with porn flick-inspired electric guitar embellishment)

What audiences do you think would want to watch programs to these pieces of music? If there are any such audiences, do you think they are sufficient to support the sport and provide enough funding for sustained champion development going forward?

And, more importantly, do you think the skaters actually listen to these pieces of music themselves, in their free time? If not, then who picks the music? Their coaches and choreographers, perhaps, who force music choices onto them because "it's what judges and officials want?" Moreover, if it's music that's been forced onto them, do you think skaters will put 100% of themselves into a performance, both technically and artistically? And when a program isn't executed up to potential, is that a sure-fire way to both generate champions and please audiences at the same time?

Would you agree that, if skaters were to select pieces of music that they believe in and, say, actually listen to on their iPods when they jog around the rink, or in their cars when they drive back and forth to/from the rink, they might be inspired to structure programs and choreography creatively around the pieces of music they actually like, no matter the limitations of skating on blades or of the CoP rules? In turn, when skaters give convincing performances to pieces of music they believe in, won't audiences begin to appreciate this? Furthermore, when you say that there are some pieces of music that are not appropriate for skating, isn't that just your own restrictive biases and creative limitations at work?

More generally, do you think that there is a clear lack of interest in skating in the U.S. and that it endangers the sport in the long run? If so, don't you think it's bad for the sport and bad for skaters in the long run if we:

* fail to lift our heads out of the sand,
* continue attacking any suggestions for change and modernization,
* do nothing,
* watch funding shrivel up, and
* see our competitive results wither away?

Real suggestions as to how we can reverse the slide in interest in skating in the U.S., grow audiences, and generate more funding for more champions would be appreciated, as opposed to reactionary nit-picking. :)