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johndockley92
11-12-2011, 03:43 AM
He would not make another U.S team if he returned. The USFSA was never found of him and while the U.S men have been stronger they still have Abbott possibly back on track, some younger men, and possibly Evan coming back; all of whom could place better at a Worlds than Johnny would be capable of right now. He would be welcomed back with a guillitone, not a welcome mat. I think he knows this as well, along with the fact the field has passed him (his best performances ever could only net 6th place in Vancouver, and probably would have been 10th or worse if everyone had skated to their potential) and would never return. I would love to see him as a show skater. I hope he pursues that avenue if possible.


^^ LOL that will never happen and you can't base anything off that.
I trust whatever decision Johnny makes!

judgejudy27
11-12-2011, 04:07 AM
:rofl: at my bold

The sad truth is that Johnny had more talent than Lysacek, and was much less of a headcase than Abbott. However, he never realized his full potential IMO. Perhaps if he'd had Lysacek's work ethic and played by the USFSA's rules [I know that it shouldn't matter but it does], he would've been the biggest threat to the top of the podium.

Very true. Evan did everything right to maximize his opportunities though, including kissing up to the USFSA (as nauseating as that might be at times) and toeing the party line at all times (well up until recently but lets face it, he isnt going to achieve much more in any potential comeback anyhow). Johnny sabatoged himself and made too many wrong decisions along the way, none worse than how he threw away an Olympic medal in 2006 by showing up completely unprepared for the long program, which was wide open for him to win in that years splatfest. When he finally started doing things right it was too little too late.

Wyliefan
11-12-2011, 04:20 AM
Hell, after his second place showing in the sp in Torino, U.S. officials should've slept outside Johnny's dorm room and delivered him to the rink in a limousine with full escort for the fp.

:rofl: Because they were supposed to (1) realize that a grown man capable of skating a second-place SP couldn't be trusted to get himself to the rink on time, and (2) reward that?

REO
11-12-2011, 04:42 AM
after his second place showing in the sp in Torino, U.S. officials should've slept outside Johnny's dorm room and delivered him to the rink in a limousine with full escort for the fp. The upshot is, they simply didn't care how Weir would fare overall -- they were too busy not commenting on all the media speculation after sp ... 'Is Weir gay? And/ or, too busy worrying about Lysacek getting over his illness and sp problems.


I don't think they didn't care about him in Torino. At the time he was their best shot at a medal. Not sure he could have beaten Plushy but he could have had a silver for sure. I do think though, that afterwards, especially when he didn't medal and the media had made such a huge deal about the gay issue, USFS piled on the Evan bandwagon. I think Johnny knew it and that pushed his rebelliousness into overdrive.
I've always maintained that because he started skating so late and it all came so easily to him that he never learned the discipline that a skater like Evan has to learn. Without the bulldog tenacity Evan would have been toast. He's not that natural a talent. If things were going badly in practice, Johnny would get frustrated and leave Priscilla standing alone on the ice. She didn't have the control over him that I'd bet Carroll had over Evan. Tarasova would not have tolerated that either, and he was in enough awe of her that he would have perhaps been more... cooperative. It's a shame she didn't stay in the US year around and the Weirs could have afforded her full time. It's water under the bridge now but I agree it is a shame there are no big tours except SOI or pro competitions now because he is a great show skater.

BigB08822
11-12-2011, 05:10 AM
He would not make another U.S team if he returned. The USFSA was never found of him and while the U.S men have been stronger they still have Abbott possibly back on track, some younger men, and possibly Evan coming back; all of whom could place better at a Worlds than Johnny would be capable of right now. He would be welcomed back with a guillitone, not a welcome mat. I think he knows this as well, along with the fact the field has passed him (his best performances ever could only net 6th place in Vancouver, and probably would have been 10th or worse if everyone had skated to their potential) and would never return. I would love to see him as a show skater. I hope he pursues that avenue if possible.

You are forgetting some key aspects of Johnny's personality. He is the type of person who loves to do things he is told he can't or shouldn't do. All of the reasons you listed are reasons for him to make a comeback. A logical person would think otherwise but Johnny fights against logic a lot, haha.

aftershocks
11-12-2011, 05:28 AM
Yes, too funny, Wyliefan. That was hyperbole on my part, btw. Lots of hyperbole in fs. :D

Also, its kinda funny how a lot of people love making excuses for Patrick Chan. The latest apologia, mentioned in another thread here in trash: Chan "is still young." So at 21 (which he'll be end of December), Chan "is still young," while at 21 in 2006, Johnny was "a grown man." :rofl: Yes, he "couldn't be trusted," because the time of departure was changed and he wasn't informed. But yeah, no excuse for his not being there on time to settle in and calm his nerves, no excuse for losing second place and not bringing home a medal. Johnny has always taken full responsibility for being unable to find his aura at those Olympics.

There have never been any excuses made for Johnny, just a lot of nitpicking, :rolleyes: and tittering.

I don't completely disagree with you REO. But to be honest, the US Fed were never comfortable with Johnny being U.S. National champion. They did realize he had talent and were willing to reward him and to sit back and see how things would turn out, but they were standoffish about fully supporting him, and uncomfortable with his edgy, unconventional behavior, and his tendency to speak his mind, no matter how witty and honest. They didn't get that along with his talent Johnny had an appeal that if handled effectively could have helped attract new fans to the sport. Its ironic and noteworthy that the rest of the world does "get" Johnny.

Johnny addressed the fact in his book that starting later as a skater did not help him competitively. It took awhile for him to learn how to be competitive and not fall apart when things didn't go well. But OTOH, his early equestrian training helped him bring gorgeous posture to his skating and I like the fact that he wasn't indoctrinated at an early age into doing exactly what he was told and being macho on the ice at all costs.

judiz
11-12-2011, 05:34 AM
I have to wonder if Johnny will be happy returning to competitive skating after two years living in the real world. He has a boyfriend who Galina would consider a distraction, he has friends outside skating who may not understand his devotion to training and Johnny has many interests now that don't involve skating such as his MAC promotion, his music and his fashion designing. I wonder if once an athlete gets a taste of the world outside the arena, are they happy returning?

aftershocks
11-12-2011, 05:52 AM
You are forgetting some key aspects of Johnny's personality. He is the type of person who loves to do things he is told he can't or shouldn't do. All of the reasons you listed are reasons for him to make a comeback. A logical person would think otherwise but Johnny fights against logic a lot, haha.

Agree with you BigB08822, and johndockley92 (even tho' I'd prefer that neither Johnny nor Evan try to come back now). I say don't come back unless you really have something different to show. And, it really would be something different if Johnny transformed himself into a new kind of Carmen, and Evan transformed himself into a new kind of Robin Cousins. :lol: I'd bet more money on Johnny actually succeeding in making such a transformation, btw!

judgejudy, I have to disagree with your Olympics assessment. Sure, Johnny could have fallen into 10th place at 2010 Olympics with mistakes on his part, because you see, the judges were determined for him to start out in 6th place and stay in 6th place only if he skated two clean performances, which he did. In what universe was Lambiel (who had two great programs choreographically) ever going to skate cleanly? It didn't matter how Lamby and Chan skated, they were always going to be in front of Weir. Or maybe if Weir hadn't responded to press questions about the Inman brouhaha, the judges might have put Johnny ahead of Lamby. :P Of course Johnny deserved a higher placement after his short program. He was competitive with the top three, and he blew Chan and Lamby away in both programs. But please, the 2010 Olympic performances for Johnny although a personal victory for him, were not the best he'd ever skated.

judgejudy27
11-12-2011, 06:08 AM
You are forgetting some key aspects of Johnny's personality. He is the type of person who loves to do things he is told he can't or shouldn't do. All of the reasons you listed are reasons for him to make a comeback. A logical person would think otherwise but Johnny fights against logic a lot, haha.

True. Unfortunately he also isnt one who seems to defy the odds and prove people wrong along with it, like say the Williams sisters or Maria Butyrskaya. I guess there is a first for everything though. :shuffle:

judgejudy27
11-12-2011, 06:11 AM
Agree with you BigB08822, and johndockley92 (even tho' I'd prefer that neither Johnny nor Evan try to come back now). I say don't come back unless you really have something different to show. And, it really would be something different if Johnny transformed himself into a new kind of Carmen, and Evan transformed himself into a new kind of Robin Cousins. :lol: I'd bet more money on Johnny actually succeeding in making such a transformation, btw!

judgejudy, I have to disagree with your Olympics assessment. Sure, Johnny could have fallen into 10th place at 2010 Olympics with mistakes on his part, because you see, the judges were determined for him to start out in 6th place and stay in 6th place only if he skated two clean performances, which he did. In what universe was Lambiel (who had two great programs choreographically) ever going to skate cleanly? It didn't matter how Lamby and Chan skated, they were always going to be in front of Weir. Or maybe if Weir hadn't responded to press questions about the Inman brouhaha, the judges might have put Johnny ahead of Lamby. :P Of course Johnny deserved a higher placement after his short program. He was competitive with the top three, and he blew Chan and Lamby away in both programs. But please, the 2010 Olympic performances for Johnny although a personal victory for him, were not the best he'd ever skated.

Well that is the whole point isnt it. To the judges Johnny was already a has been and no longer of relevance at that point. Certain skaters (most of the 5 who finished over him in fact) probably could have sat on their ass for half the program and still been placed over him by the judges. Others like Joubert, Abbott, and possibly Oda and Verner, only had to skate sort of decently, not even cleanly, and they would have been placed above him too, dropping him even lower despite his clean and excellent skates. I agree he was undermarked in Vancouver, which is the whole point really. He was only considered the #3 U.S skater at that point, had no backing from the USFSA who were splitting support between Abbot and Evan, and had no real clout with international judges any longer.

As for better performances, they were atleast on par with his best ever. When do you think Johnny skated significantly bette than in Vancouver?

luCN
11-12-2011, 07:13 AM
after so many times,I finally know one thing -Johnny won't come back,whatever he says in interviews or twitter...maybe he just must to say something to keep under the limelight.or maybe for his coming Be Good Johnny Weir 2.

I'll expect next year's Artristy on Ice shows (SZ just annouced it'll hold in 4-5 cities next summer)rather than look forward to these things

doubleflutz
11-12-2011, 07:21 AM
True. Unfortunately he also isnt one who seems to defy the odds and prove people wrong along with it

I guess you weren't at 2004 Nationals. :shuffle:

aftershocks
11-12-2011, 09:54 AM
judgejudy, I don't think the Olympics judges thought for a moment that Johnny was a "has-been." Clearly he wasn't. He wouldn't have even been in 6th place if they had felt that way about him. They were certainly aware that his own fed was merely tolerating him at that point. Johnny simply skated great at Nats and U.S. fed couldn't send Ryan B (as they would have wished) b/c Ryan B had messed up his sp at Nats 2010. Anyway, Johnny should have been ahead of Evan after the 2010 Nats sp, but typically they put Evan ahead, even tho' Evan had a bobble in his sp and Johnny skated his sp clean and with more pizzazz.

Please check out as many of Johnny's past performances that you can find. I would not put Olympics 2010 performances at the top of the list. There are too many to list, and he's had so many stellar exhibitions, but if we're talking about competitions only then, here are a few that rise above his Olympic 2010 efforts:

The Swan '06 Olympics
The Swan '06 Nats
TEB Rondo Capriccioso 2004
His GP 2004 season overall was stellar
Dr. Zhivago 04 Nats 04 Worlds
Valse Triste 04 Nats 04 Worlds
Otonal many performances on GP 04, and at 05 Nats
Love Is War throughout GP 07 and Nats 08
His 2007-2008 sp many performances, esp Worlds 2008
His GPF 2009 performances were as good or better than at Olympics 2010
Nats 2010 sp (as good as at the Olympics 2010)
King of Chess 07 Nats
2003 Nats sp
Johnny even performed his 08-09 sp beautifully during GPF in 2008

judiz
11-12-2011, 01:29 PM
Well that is the whole point isnt it. To the judges Johnny was already a has been and no longer of relevance at that point. Certain skaters (most of the 5 who finished over him in fact) probably could have sat on their ass for half the program and still been placed over him by the judges. Others like Joubert, Abbott, and possibly Oda and Verner, only had to skate sort of decently, not even cleanly, and they would have been placed above him too, dropping him even lower despite his clean and excellent skates. I agree he was undermarked in Vancouver, which is the whole point really. He was only considered the #3 U.S skater at that point, had no backing from the USFSA who were splitting support between Abbot and Evan, and had no real clout with international judges any longer.



AND that is why skating is in such a mess and disregarded by many as not being a real sport. Skaters should be scored based solely on what he or she accomplish on the ice at that moment, not on their reputation, not on the feelings on their federation and certainly not on the prejudices of the judges.

Don't mind me, just venting and ranting.:mad:

aftershocks
11-12-2011, 09:43 PM
ITA, judiz. The sport is subjective, but what really complicates things is the politics. I guess the skaters are used to it, and so they can only focus on doing the best they can do, and then find out what the judges decide.

OT: E.g., I would have had Ashley winning bronze at NHK Trophy. Even though Alena jumped well in her sp, her overall sp is a messy mess with poorly cut music, and sloppy costume. She should never have been in 2nd place in the short program. Just because her jumps were very good in the short, why does that mean her PCS should have been so high? And I actually loved Alena's performances at Worlds in 2011, and thought she deserved bronze there. She's taken a step backward this season. While Ashley (although she's not a World beater right now, she definitely looks really good on the ice and has taken many steps forward with her programs this year). No way Alena was better overall than Ashley in either program.

Back on topic:
So, although I would love to see Johnny skating competitively again, I too think someone trying to put together a professional tour would be a better venue for Johnny, Evan, and other skaters who still want to compete.