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care bear
11-06-2011, 05:49 PM
And when I compair Brian's new skater to how he used to skate, the change is staggering.
Do you mean Fernadez?
Fernandez landed his 3a, 4t, 4s for a long time before he moved to Toronto.

bek
11-06-2011, 05:57 PM
And when I compair Brian's new skater to how he used to skate, the change is staggering.

Fernandez has improved, but I have to point out what the posters above said. Javier was already landing 3axels, Quad toes, and Quad salchows in competition. Long before he went to Brian.

Brian's not responsible for Javier having those skills. Now Brian is responsible for improving Javier further, but to be frank its a lot easier to polish a skater up, improve their basic skating skills etc, even help them get more consistent. Than it is teach a skater the big tricks.

Adam might not be in the right place coaching wise, but I'm not sure Orser was the right coach for him too. Its not like Adam was getting competition consistent on his 3axels and quads under Brian either. I think that what Adam more than likely needs is a coach who has DOCUMENTED experience teaching these type of jumps. To be quite frank probably Mishin would be the best coach for Adam believe it or not. Not that Mishin would take on Adam with Artur and the Sochi Olympics but someone like that is who Adam would really need. Someone who knows the jumps inside and out and has a documented experience teaching the jumps. Perhaps Hill who is great at teaching the 3axel.

Brian may in the end turn out to be a very good technical coach when teaching students the jumps. I like Gao's technique. But I think for his own sake, Adam needs a coach with documented experience teaching these jumps. (Teaching and doing are two different things). I can imagine him telling Mishin (this is how he should train the jumps etc) Adam wouldn't dare.

doubleflutz
11-06-2011, 06:10 PM
He needs to stop changing coaches every single time he has a competitive setback. One time and it could have been them (especially since "them" was Morozov), twice means it's him. He can probably get the 3A down with just about anyone, if he develops the right mindset, but he's not there yet.

bek
11-06-2011, 06:13 PM
He needs to stop changing coaches every single time he has a competitive setback. One time and it could have been them (especially since "them" was Morozov), twice means it's him. He can probably get the 3A down with just about anyone, if he develops the right mindset, but he's not there yet.

It seems to me like Adam likes to always go to the "hot coaches of the moment" I must say though, say whatever you will about Nikolai but it does seem like has good people working on the jumps with his students (And Orser's student do a good job with the 3/3s seeing Gao)

This being said the hot coach of the moment may not be the coach for him, and I think Adam perhaps should look at someone with a documented history of working with his weakness that is the jumps.

floskate
11-06-2011, 06:13 PM
Well Adam had landed the triple axel before he went to Brian and it seems to me that he landed way more in competition under Brian than he did with his other coaches before and after.

IMO he needs to change the entry down the rink rather than across so that there's more space to jump into and it would lessen his tendency to stalk the jump around multiple corners!

bek
11-06-2011, 06:16 PM
Well Adam had landed the triple axel before he went to Brian and it seems to me that he landed way more in competition under Brian than he did with his other coaches before and after.

IMO he needs to change the entry down the rink rather than across so that there's more space to jump into and it would lessen his tendency to stalk the jump around multiple corners!

Adam really didn't start attempting the 3axel until the season he went to Orser...I remember him saying in an interview before going to Brian that he had a nice two footed triple axel, and I frankly think that has remained the case. Its not like he's landed a ton of clean triple axels under Brian.

I don't think the problem really though is any of those coaches, I think Adam just has an issue with that jump.

doubleflutz
11-06-2011, 06:22 PM
This being said the hot coach of the moment may not be the coach for him, and I think Adam perhaps should look at someone with a documented history of working with his weakness that is the jumps.

That won't work, because it's probably not a technique problem, just mental. Or a technique problem brought on by a mental block that makes him unable to execute physically, plus a mish-mash of muscle memory from coach-hopping. Coach-hopping like this says to me that on some he doesn't accept full responsibility for his jumps, even though he has a reputation as a hard worker and I'm sure he's put a lot of effort into trying to get the 3A down. Harsh to say, but there you go. It seems to me like he's always looking around for some magic bullet of a coaching environment that will "put everything in place" for himself, so he can succeed. Environment can be a factor, so sometimes coaching changes work, but when it's like his default reaction to something going wrong, that means he's using it as an excuse. Basically, I think he needs to accept that he blows at the 3A and it's not due to a defiency in the coaching system, he just needs to work hard and have some patience. That's basically exactly what Morozov said when they broke up, and although the guy is a sleaze and I'm sure there was more to it than that and leaving Morozov was the right choice for Adam, I'm willing to bet there is a lot of truth and insight in Morozov's version of events.

bek
11-06-2011, 06:30 PM
That won't work, because it's probably not a technique problem, just mental. Or a technique problem brought on by a mental block that makes him unable to execute physically, plus a mish-mash of muscle memory from coach-hopping. Coach-hopping like this says to me that on some he doesn't accept full responsibility for his jumps, even though he has a reputation as a hard worker and I'm sure he's put a lot of effort into trying to get the 3A down. Harsh to say, but there you go. It seems to me like he's always looking around for some magic bullet of a coaching environment that will "put everything in place" for himself, so he can succeed. Environment can be a factor, so sometimes coaching changes work, but when it's like his default reaction to something going wrong, that means he's using it as an excuse. Basically, I think he needs to accept that he blows at the 3A and it's not due to a defiency in the coaching system, he just needs to work hard and have some patience. That's basically exactly what Morozov said when they broke up, and although the guy is a sleaze and I'm sure there was more to it than that and leaving Morozov was the right choice for Adam, I'm willing to bet there is a lot of truth and insight in Morozov's version of events.

But I think what I'm saying about "the hot coach of the moment comes in" When you get a new coach that's hot you pretty much hear all the good stuff and very little of the bad stuff. Thats why I'm saying why did he never go to a coach that really had a document history of doing a good job teaching his area of weakness. Nikolai, Orser, Yuka/Jason none of them had a documented history fixing triple axels. This doesn't mean that they don't know what they are doing but I have to wonder why the decision on Adam's part was always to go with the "hot, newer coach"

And I suspect there is truth in Morozov's version of events as well. Say what you will about Nikolai but he does seem to know what he's doing when it comes to his singles skaters. Even if he's a jerk.

I remember Adam saying later on that Nikolai and Orser were very similar. But I agree coaching hopping may mess up with the technique even more.

smarts1
11-06-2011, 08:21 PM
His triple axel has gotten worse IMO. She is extremely cautious going into the jump. Like Dick once said about Carolina's lutzes, if your just going to stand, skating backwards, and wait for the jump to happen, it's not going to ever happen because it's just too hard to get the power and strength to do that jump anymore after waiting so long to get into it.

mjames
11-06-2011, 08:27 PM
.... Basically, I think he needs to accept that he blows at the 3A and it's not due to a defiency in the coaching system, he just needs to work hard and have some patience...

Sound advice, I know once I admit that I "blow" at something it changes everything. :rofl:

Glad this got moved to the trash can (where it belongs).

sk8er1964
11-06-2011, 08:42 PM
TIt seems to me like he's always looking around for some magic bullet of a coaching environment that will "put everything in place" for himself, so he can succeed. Environment can be a factor, so sometimes coaching changes work, but when it's like his default reaction to something going wrong, that means he's using it as an excuse.

Didn't he leave Morozov and go to Orser because he wasn't getting the coaching time from Morosov that he needed and Orser only had one major elite student (Yu-Na) at the time?


But I think what I'm saying about "the hot coach of the moment comes in" ....snip.... Yuka/Jason none of them had a documented history fixing triple axels. This doesn't mean that they don't know what they are doing but I have to wonder why the decision on Adam's part was always to go with the "hot, newer coach"

Although it hasn't been said in so many words, I believe that Adam left Order because of some sort of personality and/or coaching philosophy conflict. There's nothing wrong with that - not everyone can work well with each other. No reason to stay in an uncomfortable working situation.

What Yuka/Jason do have is a good track record working with someone with competition nerves (Czisney) which is probably why both Abbott and Adam went there.

jlai
11-06-2011, 09:24 PM
But Adam has always struck me as having decent competitive nerves--not great nerves but better than Czisny or Abbott when they were 19 or 20.

Sometimes when you're with a coach (or boss/teacher/etc) it's easy to notice things that irritate you and wish for a coach who doesn't have that annoying characteristic; but in reality, the coach you have may also have the one thing that made you wanna train with him/her in the first place. JMHO.

mjames
11-06-2011, 09:39 PM
Yesterday I saw a skater who looked recharged not someone who was washed up. Late last season I thought his performance lacked joy or the freedom he always had. I saw a renewed spark come back in his skating, a lightness in spite of the axel issue. Other than the axel mistakes I thought his performance was beautiful and love the LP much more than Rach from last year. His spins were first rate too.

doubleflutz
11-06-2011, 09:39 PM
What Yuka/Jason do have is a good track record working with someone with competition nerves (Czisney) which is probably why both Abbott and Adam went there.

One and a half seasons with one skater isn't really a track record, I would say, as great as Alissa's improvements have been. I also think she probably could have done nearly as well just by going to any experienced, international-level coach. She stayed with her old coaches way too long, and it was clearly a case where the environment had been hindering her development for a long time. Jeremy had an odd season last year, and he kind of won Cup of China by default; it was a terrible competition in a lot of ways, maybe just awful ice, but it's hard to say how he'll do this season. So right now, it's kind of hard to say how good Yuka and Jason really are, and if that's the reason Adam switched, that's because he's chasing rainbows. When he doesn't let himself get thrown by a fall on the 3A (or putting so much energy into landing it that he messes up other jumps), he's a good enough competitor anyway. He knows how to fight for his programs, how to save his jumps, how to come from behind and not give up in the long because he bombed the short, etc. It's just the 3A that's having an impact on his competitive mojo.

bek
11-06-2011, 10:42 PM
One and a half seasons with one skater isn't really a track record, I would say, as great as Alissa's improvements have been. I also think she probably could have done nearly as well just by going to any experienced, international-level coach. She stayed with her old coaches way too long, and it was clearly a case where the environment had been hindering her development for a long time. Jeremy had an odd season last year, and he kind of won Cup of China by default; it was a terrible competition in a lot of ways, maybe just awful ice, but it's hard to say how he'll do this season. So right now, it's kind of hard to say how good Yuka and Jason really are, and if that's the reason Adam switched, that's because he's chasing rainbows. When he doesn't let himself get thrown by a fall on the 3A (or putting so much energy into landing it that he messes up other jumps), he's a good enough competitor anyway. He knows how to fight for his programs, how to save his jumps, how to come from behind and not give up in the long because he bombed the short, etc. It's just the 3A that's having an impact on his competitive mojo.

Exactly. I don't think Adam's issue is competitive nerves he needs to work on those jumps. I still don't get why Adam always chooses to go with the newest coach rather than going to someone like Frank, Don Laws, Raphael etc. People with some documented history of teaching these type of jumps well. A part of me wonders if some of it is because with the new coaches I'd imagine you hear all the good things but not so much the bad things (yet) They've got the new shiny look.