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allezfred
11-06-2011, 07:54 PM
It was a million times better than Debi Thomas's horrendous "Carmen". It wasn't much of a battle in the end. Even in a country where skating interest is practically non-existent everybody remembers Witt's "Carmen".

mmscfdcsu
11-06-2011, 07:56 PM
It was a million times better than Debi Thomas's horrendous "Carmen". It wasn't much of a battle in the end. Even in a country where skating interest is practically non-existent everybody remembers Witt's "Carmen".

Yes, Witt was a much better competitor. The program not so great. YMMV

allezfred
11-06-2011, 08:14 PM
Yes, Witt was a much better competitor. The program not so great. YMMV

MMDV. It's an iconic programme for good reason. ;)

MacMadame
11-06-2011, 10:29 PM
It was a million times better than Debi Thomas's horrendous "Carmen".
Yes.


It wasn't much of a battle in the end.
Yes.


Even in a country where skating interest is practically non-existent everybody remembers Witt's "Carmen".
Eh, really? I think people remember the battle and that Witt won but do they really remember the program? I do remember the dress and that's about it.

Rex
11-06-2011, 10:54 PM
Yes, Witt was a much better competitor. The program not so great. YMMV
That's how I feel. Witt had nerves of steel. And while I don't care for her Carmen, it was Debi's program to lose, and Debi choked horribly. I was a little pissed at her for it.

bek
11-06-2011, 11:01 PM
That's how I feel. Witt had nerves of steel. And while I don't care for her Carmen, it was Debi's program to lose, and Debi choked horribly. I was a little pissed at her for it.

To me Witt is Carmen. The woman every man wants, the heart breaking vixen. I think Debbie should have chosen other music. I don't think Debbie has that same type of charisma.

Judy
11-06-2011, 11:14 PM
I'm sure that Katerina Witt - and others including fans - feel the same way. Figure skating has changed dramatically. I think personally as a fan who appreciates both the artistry and the technical, I do miss the freedom skaters once had. But I also recognize that this was the only way to solve the problem. Every sport has to be accountable and figure skating especially ice dance was in the dark ages about this. I do respect what Katerina said though.

bek
11-06-2011, 11:17 PM
I'm sure that Katerina Witt - and others including fans - feel the same way. Figure skating has changed dramatically. I think personally as a fan who appreciates both the artistry and the technical, I do miss the freedom skaters once had. But I also recognize that this was the only way to solve the problem. Every sport has to be accountable and figure skating especially ice dance was in the dark ages about this. I do respect what Katerina said though.

I'm not saying that I'd call Witt the greatest artistic or technical skater of all time. But I think that Carmen was the perfect role for her. And Witt clearly lived her Carmen and felt the part, Debbie not so much.

Seerek
11-07-2011, 01:43 AM
Not sure what's so emotional about a short program skated to The Muppet Show or a long program to Superman...

neptune
11-07-2011, 03:40 AM
Katarina wants to know where all the emotion has gone? Maybe the same place as all the flowers. ;)

Rock2
11-07-2011, 04:32 AM
There is mounds of emotion in skating today. Has anyone watched...like..ANY Russian skater? (Ok maybe not Gachinski). Or any chinese pair? Kostner? Phaneuf? Weir? Bradley? MT/M. There's tons of emotion out there. Witt's angle on emotion was distinctly hers because she 'interacted' with the audience more...which is very easy to do when you are not moving...

Random point: Thomas was slow as molasses and so boring to watch. Give me Kadavy any day.

Ok, back to skating. Skating is a sport first and foremost and so CoP was invented to grant more points for athleticism and athletic achievement. PCS is less about performance ability -- that's show skating -- and is more about looking at your program outside of the elements and rewarding your ability in skating skills and moving with difficulty and conviction. Some room for showmanship in the marks but not much. This is why you have some skaters with less showmanship than others win titles.

When I'm around people new to watching skating and they hunger to understand the 'artistic' marks I tell them this "if you are seeing something about the program that is artistic in your mind ask yourself if it's hard to do. Standing in one spot smiling at the audience isn't hard from a skills perspective. Edging around and keeping your feet and body active is hard. So it gets more points, even if it's comparatively boring to you". Then they get it.

So skating has taken some hits in appeal because of CoP, but I support the direction because I personally prefer Olympic Eligible figure skating to be a sport. Just my HO. I'll leave you with two more points.

1. Skaters are painting themselves into a corner artistically. The system isn't doing it. Skaters are scared to try new things. Choreographers complain about it all the time. Look at Stephanie Rosenthal in 2006 US Nats. Where are the skaters who tried more of this and got hammered in marks undeservedly?

2. Before you push to make skating more "artistic" don't forget that's what show skating is all about...and that sh*t's not filling the seats anymore either.

alchemy void
11-07-2011, 05:48 AM
There is mounds of emotion in skating today. Has anyone watched...like..ANY Russian skater? (Ok maybe not Gachinski). Or any chinese pair? Kostner? Phaneuf? Weir? Bradley? MT/M. There's tons of emotion out there. Witt's angle on emotion was distinctly hers because she 'interacted' with the audience more...which is very easy to do when you are not moving...

Random point: Thomas was slow as molasses and so boring to watch. Give me Kadavy any day.

Ok, back to skating. Skating is a sport first and foremost and so CoP was invented to grant more points for athleticism and athletic achievement. PCS is less about performance ability -- that's show skating -- and is more about looking at your program outside of the elements and rewarding your ability in skating skills and moving with difficulty and conviction. Some room for showmanship in the marks but not much. This is why you have some skaters with less showmanship than others win titles.

When I'm around people new to watching skating and they hunger to understand the 'artistic' marks I tell them this "if you are seeing something about the program that is artistic in your mind ask yourself if it's hard to do. Standing in one spot smiling at the audience isn't hard from a skills perspective. Edging around and keeping your feet and body active is hard. So it gets more points, even if it's comparatively boring to you". Then they get it.

So skating has taken some hits in appeal because of CoP, but I support the direction because I personally prefer Olympic Eligible figure skating to be a sport. Just my HO. I'll leave you with two more points.

1. Skaters are painting themselves into a corner artistically. The system isn't doing it. Skaters are scared to try new things. Choreographers complain about it all the time. Look at Stephanie Rosenthal in 2006 US Nats. Where are the skaters who tried more of this and got hammered in marks undeservedly?

2. Before you push to make skating more "artistic" don't forget that's what show skating is all about...and that sh*t's not filling the seats anymore either.

This. :respec:

PS Still love Witt and she definitely "owns" West Side Story, Carmen, and her 84 SP folk music. But she's looking at the past with blinders, just like today, there are skaters who 'emoted'...and those who definitely didn't.

Sally1214
11-07-2011, 06:38 AM
Slightly off-topic ... but has Katarina Witt ever been married or had any children? I've kind of lost track of her over the years.

And, I tend to agree with her to a large extent. There are parts of the new judging system that I think are very good for skating .... others, not so much. It DOES tend to make the skaters so busy concentrating on accummulating points that, sometimes, there's no time left to express much emotion. JMO

Bournekraatzfan
11-07-2011, 08:13 AM
I liked Katarina, but prefer the artistry of Buttle, a CoP genius. As others have noted, Katarina did a lot of posing...I mean, I liked her and felt she definitely had a star quality about her...but to me that is no match to what Buttle can do.

I am also not convinced that 6.0 era skating would do any better in the ratings right now than CoP skating.

Artifice
11-07-2011, 11:14 AM
I don't find "old" programs from the 90's and before being more artistic than today's programs.
I actually find a lot of programs from the 80's and 90's very boring and artistically uninteresting. And I find some today's programs very nice/fun to watch, orignal and artistic.