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prometheus
11-05-2011, 05:42 PM
Hersh is a bit brash, but he is just voicing what the average public is thinking about Chan's wins.

overedge
11-05-2011, 06:23 PM
Hersh is a bit brash, but he is just voicing what the average public is thinking about Chan's wins.

And how do you know what the "average public" thinks?

prometheus
11-05-2011, 06:35 PM
And how do you know what the "average public" thinks?

It's a given that since last season, there's been an uproar about the his scores and the way he won. Maybe someone should conduct a poll here to count the number of people who agree or disagree with his scores to get a more accurate reading, but not going into nitty gritty, I can generalize from reading threads about Chan that the number of people disagreeing are the majority compared to those agreeing (I also think that those agreeing tend to be more vocal and post more often). On average, those disagreeing outweigh those agreeing.

Louise
11-05-2011, 06:43 PM
I dunno, maybe that's why I think there should be TEC judges and then PCS judges. Way too many scores to bullet in in too short a time.

I also think Interpretation needs to be removed, because face it, most skaters, even the chosen ones, do the same thing over and over and over again, irrespective of the music that is playing. You can play Kwan 2003 to the same music as Kwan 2004 and it's almost EXACTLY the same product. Do it. It's disconcerting. After rereading the PCS component criteria, I cannot imagine Tut getting anything in interpretation, she's just skating like a practice with some superficial hand flicks.

God, this scoring system depresses me. Chan is a one in a million skater, only seen a few times in HISTORY, so my beef isn't with him. It's when TUT gets good PCS. She's NOTHING, all jumps and hand flicks. Spins average, attention to music avg to below, and performance? God this system sux. She lands her jumps it's great PE. Except all she did was NOTHING but landed the jumps.

I'm not anti-teen. I think LIP is trying to get components but she is such a little girl it won't be recognized. A 20 y/o prima will always do better than a 12 y/o. But the 12 y/o could also be a gem, and should be recognized.

I almost like the old system where a TUT was probably 5.8/5.9 TEC but 5.5/5.6 PRES.

overedge
11-05-2011, 06:46 PM
It's a given that since last season, there's been an uproar about the his scores and the way he won.

There has? I see plenty of posters here who have no problem with his scores or his wins.

And the dedicated and informed fans who closely follow skating and post here are not representative of the "average public",most of whom IMHO would not know Chan if they tripped over him on the street, much less care about his scores.

professordeb
11-06-2011, 03:21 AM
It's a given that since last season, there's been an uproar about the his scores and the way he won. Maybe someone should conduct a poll here to count the number of people who agree or disagree with his scores to get a more accurate reading, but not going into nitty gritty, I can generalize from reading threads about Chan that the number of people disagreeing are the majority compared to those agreeing (I also think that those agreeing tend to be more vocal and post more often). On average, those disagreeing outweigh those agreeing.

Perhaps those of us who are "pro Chan" are just weary of attempting to argue with the "con Chan" cause it seems their arguments keep us in an infinite loop. Your last part of the second last sentence pretty much sums it up - those who disagree to tend to be more vocal and post more often, and saying the same things over and over and over again - hence my referring to it as an infinite loop.

Those who actually follow skating and have taken the time to understand COP realize why Chan has won in spite of his falls. If someone like Hersh would take the time to actually understand COP, maybe he'd consider educating John Q Public and the "uproar" he thinks he still hears about Chan would abate. Does this man ever write anything positive about anyone? Just curious cause I don't read his articles unless someone posts them here and sometimes I don't even make it to the end when I do take the time to read it cause I find I soooo disagree with him.

jl22aries
11-06-2011, 03:57 AM
Perhaps those of us who are "pro Chan" are just weary of attempting to argue with the "con Chan" cause it seems their arguments keep us in an infinite loop. Your last part of the second last sentence pretty much sums it up - those who disagree to tend to be more vocal and post more often, and saying the same things over and over and over again - hence my referring to it as an infinite loop.

Those who actually follow skating and have taken the time to understand COP realize why Chan has won in spite of his falls. If someone like Hersh would take the time to actually understand COP, maybe he'd consider educating John Q Public and the "uproar" he thinks he still hears about Chan would abate. Does this man ever write anything positive about anyone? Just curious cause I don't read his articles unless someone posts them here and sometimes I don't even make it to the end when I do take the time to read it cause I find I soooo disagree with him.


I love this post. Agreed.

AxelAnnie
11-06-2011, 04:27 AM
I think Hersh DOES undertsand the sport...and that is why he sees the problems he sees. For figure skating
To be taken seriously it has to be comprehensible. In any sport I can think of, a fall is bad. When a skater falls 3 times it becomes silly when you try to explain to the friend next to you why they won.

And, just for thought.....perhaps a fall on a simple element deserves a bigger deduction than a fall on a harder element.

bek
11-06-2011, 04:46 AM
I think Hersh DOES undertsand the sport...and that is why he sees the problems he sees. For figure skating
To be taken seriously it has to be comprehensible. In any sport I can think of, a fall is bad. When a skater falls 3 times it becomes silly when you try to explain to the friend next to you why they won.

And, just for thought.....perhaps a fall on a simple element deserves a bigger deduction than a fall on a harder element.

Thank you. I want to say this I find those who want to arguing so and so when with multiple major errors (3 falls) in one program, I find it frustrating to hear only the "average joe is complaining." I wont call myself an expert by any means, but I want to point out there have been some fairly successful SKATERS who've had things to say about 4 falls etc.

overedge
11-06-2011, 05:37 AM
For figure skating to be taken seriously it has to be comprehensible. In any sport I can think of, a fall is bad. When a skater falls 3 times it becomes silly when you try to explain to the friend next to you why they won.


Well, you could start by explaining things like better choreography, better transitions, better footwork, better technical skills (e.g. stroking), better performance quality, and better quality of the jumps that didn't end in falls. I don't think explaining any of that is "silly", or that any of those things are impossibly difficult for a non-skating fan to even begin to understand.

nubka
11-06-2011, 05:56 AM
Well, you could start by explaining things like better choreography, better transitions, beter footwork, better technical skills (e.g. stroking), better performance quality, and better quality of the jumps that didn't end in falls. I don't think explaining any of that is "silly", or that any of those things are impossibly difficult for a non-skating fan to even begin to understand.

:rofl: :rofl:

overedge
11-06-2011, 06:04 AM
:rofl: :rofl:

Point taken, but it shouldn't be that hard to show the difference in overall quality between, say, Chan's triple axel with a fall and Kevin Reynolds' triple axel with a fall.

prometheus
11-06-2011, 12:11 PM
Perhaps those of us who are "pro Chan" are just weary of attempting to argue with the "con Chan" cause it seems their arguments keep us in an infinite loop. Your last part of the second last sentence pretty much sums it up - those who disagree to tend to be more vocal and post more often, and saying the same things over and over and over again - hence my referring to it as an infinite loop.

I actually said the opposite, that those who agree with his wins tend to be more vocal and post more often. Also noticed that there is a strong Canadian bias with regard to his supporters, although are non-Canadian supporters as well. Of course, there's nothing with this - nationalism always plays a role in sports be they for Americans, Europeans, Asians etc. But it would be interesting to guage the non-Canadian perspective of Chan's scores for an unbiased point of view.

professordeb
11-06-2011, 12:51 PM
I actually said the opposite, that those who agree with his wins tend to be more vocal and post more often. Also noticed that there is a strong Canadian bias with regard to his supporters, although are non-Canadian supporters as well. Of course, there's nothing with this - nationalism always plays a role in sports be they for Americans, Europeans, Asians etc. But it would be interesting to guage the non-Canadian perspective of Chan's scores for a non-nationalistic point of view.

I would tell Hersh (and others) that I see the same qualties in skaters other than Chan - like Takahashi for one. What I don't see is the same amount of bashing on someone like him (Tak) when he "gets held up" in the opinion of others, even though it's been more than a year after the event.

I think it would be more interesting to hear from knowledgeable skating fans on how they would stack up a "multiple fall" Chan or Takahashi vs say ... a non-falling Kevin Reynolds or Fernandez.

With respect to Hersh, what I'd like to see is him taking his knowledge of COP and actually educate his readers. Let him explain how the judges come up with the marks they do, that's it's more than just the sum of having a clean program rather than wallowing on as he does.

Please, Phil, take this as a friendly challenge from someone who loves the sport. I know it's easier to tear down than to build up, but I think you could do it.

mag
11-07-2011, 05:39 AM
You know, I watch football with my dh, and I see touchdowns ruled against based on some slow motion replay that apparently shows the receivers toes were over the line. Then they go on and on about "in control" or other such garbage that I don't understand. The touchdown looked good to me in real time. How can people say it is sport when they are making calls like that? Now, of course, I only watch the Grey Cup and the Superbowl, but that shouldn't matter - I'm still a fan :)