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victoriaheidi
11-02-2011, 11:03 PM
I don't see the argument here.
TES scores literally score "skater attempted this jump, landed it (or didn't land it, or underrotated, or whatever) and executed it (well, fair, poorly).
PCS scores take into consideration the artistic components but also the overall program. So, if the falls impact the quality of the program (think Nagasu), IMO, there should be a deduction in PCS. If the fall happens, the person gets up and you barely remember it, I doubt it impacted the program enough to merit PCS deduction.
PCS has nothing to do with cleanliness of individual jumps. If skater x falls on the opening 3Lz and never really gets his act together again, yeah, that's something the PCS can/should address. If skater y falls on a 3F somewhere in the middle and gets right back up and goes on as though the jump never happened, isn't the ~4 point deduction enough?

bek
11-02-2011, 11:10 PM
I don't see the argument here.
TES scores literally score "skater attempted this jump, landed it (or didn't land it, or underrotated, or whatever) and executed it (well, fair, poorly).
PCS scores take into consideration the artistic components but also the overall program. So, if the falls impact the quality of the program (think Nagasu), IMO, there should be a deduction in PCS. If the fall happens, the person gets up and you barely remember it, I doubt it impacted the program enough to merit PCS deduction.
PCS has nothing to do with cleanliness of individual jumps. If skater x falls on the opening 3Lz and never really gets his act together again, yeah, that's something the PCS can/should address. If skater y falls on a 3F somewhere in the middle and gets right back up and goes on as though the jump never happened, isn't the ~4 point deduction enough?

But if the skater falls multiple times, doesn't the mistakes cumulate. I.e the skater falls. Audience braces themselves okay hopefully said skater will get back into, and then the skater falls again, audience braces themselves, and then skater falls again. The cumulative effect of all the falls together is not good.

I actually dont' think you fall once everything is over capoot. I would have been more than fine/probably would have given Daisuke the Gold medal. But when we are talking about multiple (and I mean multiple) major errors, it gets to the point where its just too much.

And well you can say the skater lost four points but i could say that the person who falls on a full rotated quad-gains 6 points. If said person had done nothing, there would be no points. But you know what I and the audience would find it far less disruptive if the skater had done nothing, than if the skater had fallen on the quad. Now sure we don't want people doing only double etc. But the concept of oh said skater loses points, doesn't work for me. Your actually counting the element actaully being done-correctly. It wasn't done. They never had those points to begin with.

And the above is why there needs to be some looking at the whole. Because the judge can see okay so said skater here fell once on the jumps but landed 5 triples. And then said skater here had no falls but only landed only 2 triples and doubled everything else (yeah the doubles were high quality got some GOE but obviously not great) and the judges can than evaluate both. Which would save the whole it doesn't reward the risk/and rewards people for not trying argument. But for me I find the concept of handing someone 6 points for a fall offensive. Thats like giving every kid in a tournament a trophy whether they won or not. Or every child a good grade whether the grade deserve one or not. Except this is an Olympic level sport and we are suppose to be judging whose the best.

overedge
11-02-2011, 11:22 PM
But if the skater falls multiple times, doesn't the mistakes cumulate. I.e the skater falls. Audience braces themselves okay hopefully said skater will get back into, and then the skater falls again, audience braces themselves, and then skater falls again. The cumulative effect of all the falls together is not good.


To the audience, maybe. But the audience is not determining the program marks. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, jumps are judged as individual elements, and each will be penalized for a fall if one happens. And if the skater turns into a wobbly mess from missing a lot of jumps, that should be reflected in the PCS.

AxelAnnie
11-03-2011, 12:03 AM
Loved the article. Especially
For the first time in my three decades covering the sport, I am compelled to pay a lot of attention to ice dance -- Me too!


-While I still feel judging ice dance involves something like whether one prefers Baryshnikov to Nureyev rather than more definitive criteria, the point is watching these two couples is a win-win proposition, no matter the result.
Me too, two!!

aftershocks
11-03-2011, 02:08 AM
"Queen Tu(k)t" - Phil has christened Liza. LOVE IT!!!

Hmmmm, he might have gotten that from a skating board. Check out Golden Skate Forum's Skate Canada ladies' threads.

Vagabond
11-03-2011, 03:37 AM
Hmmmm, he might have gotten that from a skating board. Check out Golden Skate Forum's Skate Canada ladies' threads.

Or maybe even from FSU (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3265377&postcount=409). :sekret:

(He's acknowledged he reads FSU. Which reminds me -- Phil, let's you and me take Marina out for drinks sometime. Maybe we can get Shae-Lynn to come along too and make it a foursome. ;) )

MR-FAN
11-03-2011, 04:24 AM
I have suggested Flatt would do herself a favor by leaving the sport behind after a fine career that includes a U.S. title, an Olympic appearance and three world meet appearances. Readers reply that it should be her choice, and if she loves the sport, she should continue.

To anyone who saw Flatt's expression at the end of the Skate Canada free skate: do you think she was loving anything about a sport whose international judges haven't really liked her since the 2009 World Championships?

a) Judges liked her enough to put her in the final group at the Olympics, qualify her for the GPF last season, and place her 4th at the 2011 4CC, ahead of Alissa.

b) Have you seen Mirai's expression after her LP?

c) Have you seen Rachel's expression after the SP?

Yeah she looked crushed after her LP, but what's to be expected after such a tough skate? I sure as hell glad she didn't shrug it off and laugh at the mistakes the way Cynthia appeared to after her poor performance. She gave an equally poor performance at the GPF last year and came back strong at Nationals and 4CC. Don't count her out, and don't pretend that you know how she feels about the sport.

This is honestly coming from someone who doesn't enjoy Rachel's skating and doesn't usually mind Hersh's articles :shuffle:

overedge
11-03-2011, 04:37 AM
Or maybe even from FSU (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3265377&postcount=409). :sekret:


Since the original thread is locked, I'll give you a :rofl: here. This is brilliant!!!

agalisgv
11-03-2011, 04:46 AM
I don't see the argument here.
TES scores literally score "skater attempted this jump, landed it (or didn't land it, or underrotated, or whatever) and executed it (well, fair, poorly).
PCS scores take into consideration the artistic components but also the overall program. So, if the falls impact the quality of the program (think Nagasu), IMO, there should be a deduction in PCS. If the fall happens, the person gets up and you barely remember it, I doubt it impacted the program enough to merit PCS deduction.
PCS has nothing to do with cleanliness of individual jumps. If skater x falls on the opening 3Lz and never really gets his act together again, yeah, that's something the PCS can/should address. If skater y falls on a 3F somewhere in the middle and gets right back up and goes on as though the jump never happened, isn't the ~4 point deduction enough? I think the fall deduction on jumps is adequate bc as you pointed out, it works out to -3 to -4 altogether from the score. But on non-element falls, there's only a -1 deduction, and that I don't think is adequate. I think in theory, the PE score is meant to be deducted to add to the -1, but that doesn't always happen.

Chan is a unique case bc he has such strong skating skills and presentation, you want to give him beaucoup PCS (which judges typically do). But then he falls in the middle of nothing, and that isn't well reflected in his score. He still gets PE score in the 8's and 9's even with a non-element fall, so there's only a -1 deduction. The problem with Chan IMO is judges want to reward his high overall quality of skating in the PCS, but what do you do with these inexplicable falls? IMO if non-element falls got an automatic -3 like falling during a jump does, that would better reflect the overall performance--high PCS bc of superior skating skills, but significant deductions for repetitive falling.

Personally I wouldn't score PE in the 8's or 9's if there were multiple falls. I think 3's or 4's in PE for Chan would be completely unjustified though.

IceAlisa
11-03-2011, 04:57 AM
I think the fall deduction on jumps is adequate bc as you pointed out, it works out to -3 to -4 altogether from the score. But on non-element falls, there's only a -1 deduction, and that I don't think is adequate. I think in theory, the PE score is meant to be deducted to add to the -1, but that doesn't always happen.

Chan is a unique case bc he has such strong skating skills and presentation, you want to give him beaucoup PCS (which judges typically do). But then he falls in the middle of nothing, and that isn't well reflected in his score. He still gets PE score in the 8's and 9's even with a non-element fall, so there's only a -1 deduction. The problem with Chan IMO is judges want to reward his high overall quality of skating in the PCS, but what do you do with these inexplicable falls? IMO if non-element falls got an automatic -3 like falling during a jump does, that would better reflect the overall performance--high PCS bc of superior skating skills, but significant deductions for repetitive falling.

Personally I wouldn't score PE in the 8's or 9's if there were multiple falls. I think 3's or 4's in PE for Chan would be completely unjustified though.

So by your calculations, you'd deduct -3 from PE and he'd end up with 6 or 5 PE? Progressive tax, progressive deductions! :lol:

agalisgv
11-03-2011, 04:59 AM
No, instead of a -1 from the final score, make it a -3.

IceAlisa
11-03-2011, 05:01 AM
Right, and while we are at it, lets do what mag said:

I think Bek is right. Falls should be punished severely - say 2 points extra off for the second fall, 3 for the third, etc etc. That will make sure we don't have any messy programs.

(We may also never see another quad or even a triple in ladies skating, but that will give people something to complain about next year so then we can change things again to encourage risk taking so the sport doesn't regress ....)

Haven't we been down this road a few times already? Nah, it's always fun to beat the dead horse. Wheeee, progressive docking!

Dock those high scoring top skaters! :lynch: OccupyIce!!!! :mitchell:

MR-FAN
11-03-2011, 05:02 AM
No, instead of a -1 from the final score, make it a -3.

I like that idea, for non-element falls (like you suggested)

IceAlisa
11-03-2011, 05:03 AM
A -3 from the final score because of a non-element stumble???? Are you serious??

agalisgv
11-03-2011, 05:07 AM
Yeah, with a skater like Chan, you want to give him the PCS bc his skating is that good. But for non-element falls, there needs to be a better way of incoporating that than currently.

Course Chan would still be winning (and justifiably so IMO), but by a margin I think is more reflective of some of his weaknesses.