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luenatic
11-02-2011, 09:10 PM
I am not sure where in PE and IN criteria would a fall/falls have an impact:
http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

I don't feel like pasting whole pages here but you can see for yourselves. I would like to know why PE and IN be affected by falls--unless of course a skater's performance unravels after a fall. If they keep it together after a fall like Cohen in the 2006 Oly FS, for instance, PCS should not be affected.

Here:

"Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery."

Falling on the ice (or tripping) is not exactly 'quality of movement'. If the skater's behind hit the ice, it is definitely not precision in delivery.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 09:25 PM
Here:

"Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery."

Falling on the ice (or tripping) is not exactly 'quality of movement'. If the skater's behind hit the ice, it is definitely not precision in delivery.

I would say that movement here means moving the arms, body, legs and feet with precision and = general quality of movement. Jumps, are OTOH, a required element. It would be strange to have jumps referred to as "movement".

For instance, Sasha Cohen is someone who has terrific precision of movement but hardly terrific jumps. Carolina Kostner is the other way around (when she lands the jumps, that is).

Louise
11-02-2011, 09:40 PM
Uggh. It's like two opposing points of view, never to meet. A three or four fall Chan should always win because he's at least that much better in PCS. Versus, this doesn't feel right, maybe we should have this changed. It reminds me of the PI thread about children born on US soil having US citizenship. Some say "Well, that's what the Constitution says and that's just how it shall always be" versus "Well, maybe this should be looked into and possibly changed....".

I'm sorry but P/E with three falls should not be higher than a 3 or 4. What performance and execution? It's not "Performance OR Execution". Someone wipes the ice numerous times, they are below average on P/E. As much as I love Sasha Cohen's Olympic program, I admired the absolute determination to fight for everything, in P/E she could not have been more than a 4 or 5. She performed, yes, and that's what I admire, but did she execute? Heck no. She was a mess. Maybe "Heroism" should be the next PCS category to make up for the anointed ones who wipe the ice.

I enjoy these conversations. If a dancer totally scaled down their performance but performed the hell out of it (thinking of Turning Point, just watched it). Yes, performance was high, but execution? On doubles? Neh. Maybe Performance should be a different category, and Execution another one? Someone who falls three or four times or doubling everything is NOT executing under ANY condition.

bek
11-02-2011, 09:43 PM
I would say that movement here means moving the arms, body, legs and feet with precision and = general quality of movement. Jumps, are OTOH, a required element. It would be strange to have jumps referred to as "movement".

For instance, Sasha Cohen is someone who has terrific precision of movement but hardly terrific jumps. Carolina Kostner is the other way around (when she lands the jumps, that is).

One could argue that Kostner with her better edges and speed, has more than just "jumps" over Cohen in terms of quality of movement..

But here's the point I want to make. The elements are part of the program. And what makes figure skating an art is when the elements/program are seemlessly combined. You just cannot take the elements and say they are completely seperate from the performance. It doesn't work.

At the end of the day as beautiful as Sasha may be to watch, and as great as her posture is, I'll take Shizuka Arakawa's Olympic performance as a whole. Because watching Shizuka not only skate beautifully but have complete command of the elements, all together made the better picture. Same goes with Shiz in Dortmund. Nobody would say especially in 2006 that Sasha had a better performance than Arakawa. And why it was because of the jumps. Although Arakawa's flow over the ice in person I'm sure as well. Shizuka at the end of the day created a magical performance where everything soured together and was beautiful to watch. I still watch it and love it.

I remember reading an article translated in Russian where Adelina said in 2009 I want to show the judges I can skate, jump, and spin. They all have to be there. And if you have one skater who is falling all over the place on the jumps they are showing a deficiency.

But of course once again one fall or even in the case of Chan (2) doesn't necessarily mean said skater should not win, if everyone else is messy and everything else is superior. But when others skate well, it should start matter. And as said before it even leads to people rooting against said skater who always gets the edge which isn't fair.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Then you, Louise and bek (and others) should petition the ISU to institute the changes you desire. As it is, the competition discussed in the Hersh article was judged using the current CoP or IJS as is. You can't apply theoretical future criteria (that may never materialize) to existing competitions.

luenatic
11-02-2011, 09:48 PM
I would say that movement here means moving the arms, body, legs and feet with precision and = general quality of movement. Jumps, are OTOH, a required element. It would be strange to have jumps referred to as "movement".

For instance, Sasha Cohen is someone who has terrific precision of movement but hardly terrific jumps. Carolina Kostner is the other way around (when she lands the jumps, that is).

Why do you not interpret the 'precision in delivery' part of the definition? Falling on the ice is not delivering anything in precision.

Chan's is not the worse offender of P/E when he fell. Takahashi is. Every time he got up from the fall, he would do something like 'running' instead of skating to gain speed and move on with his program. Totally interrupted the feel of the program.

Louise
11-02-2011, 09:52 PM
Then you, Louise and bek (and others) should petition the ISU to institute the changes you desire. As it is, the competition discussed in the Hersh article was judged using the current CoP or IJS as is. You can't apply theoretical future criteria (that may never materialize) to existing competitions.

I myself am not trying to make these rules interpreted differently. I pretty much figure just go with the flow. Chan falls three or four times and wins decisively, great, them's the rules and he is the best skater out there according to the rules. I'm not going to fight for anything, too tired. But maybe I'd think that a two, three, four fall skater winning by a margin is kind of making a mockery of the sport. It all gets down to the PCS, and frankly, I think they are overblown. PCS is political, it takes YEARS, it is not objective in any sense. How in the world were Kozuka, Suzuki, Oda held DOWN for SO many years? It's just so random. You have a great Federation, we'll give you 8's and 9's. You're not? Oh well, too bad.

Judging in FS is crazy, and we all know it. How in the world could Sasha Cohen outscore Arakawa on ANYTHING? Yet Shizuka was #2/#3 Japanese skater, and got appropriate #2/#3 Japanese skater marks for her skating skills et al. It's a joke.

MacMadame
11-02-2011, 09:55 PM
I'm sorry but P/E with three falls should not be higher than a 3 or 4. What performance and execution? It's not "Performance OR Execution".
You need to read the rule book. PE of 3 or 4 has to have more than falls wrong with it. That's a very low level of Performance/Execution.

Also, don't forget that falls have an automatic 1 point deduction from the score that just comes off the top. Plus, they lower the GOE of the element that the fall occurred on and they do impact PE and IN scores.

You seem to want falls to completely knock a skater out of contention for any medal even if the rest of the program is flawless. Falls need to count but if you are losing 3 points off the top plus getting negative GOE on 3 elements plus seeing your PE and IN scores reduced that's a lot of points you've lost for a fall.

A PE score of 3 or 4 on top of that for an otherwise decent performance is just piling on IMO.

bek
11-02-2011, 09:57 PM
You need to read the rule book. PE of 3 or 4 has to have more than falls wrong with it. That's a very low level of Performance/Execution.

Also, don't forget that falls have an automatic 1 point deduction from the score that just comes off the top. Plus, they lower the GOE of the element that the fall occurred on and they do impact PE and IN scores.

You seem to want falls to completely knock a skater out of contention for any medal even if the rest of the program is flawless. Falls need to count but if you are losing 3 points off the top plus getting negative GOE on 3 elements plus seeing your PE and IN scores reduced that's a lot of points you've lost for a fall.

A PE score of 3 or 4 on top of that for an otherwise decent performance is just piling on IMO.

But one would argue that if you fall 3/4 times that's not a decent performance. Especially not in the eyes of the audience. The reaction of the American public to Sasha's silver medal was oh boy other than the 2 falls that was a "decent performance" It was not that was not a good performance how did you medal? And thats her own country.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 09:57 PM
One could argue that Kostner with her better edges and speed, has more than just "jumps" over Cohen in terms of quality of movement..


That will reflected in the SS and is, once again, irrelevant to the current discussion. You are confusing quality of movement above the ankle with SS.

Why do you not interpret the 'precision in delivery' part of the definition? Falling on the ice is not delivering anything in precision.


Because PE goes on to elaborate on delivery of precision as being, in part carriage, clarity of movement, (clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, and I don't consider any movement to mean a jump), etc.

bek
11-02-2011, 10:01 PM
That will reflected in the SS and is, once again, irrelevant to the current discussion. You are confusing quality of movement above the ankle with SS.

but why again is quality of movement in blades still not part of execution/performance. IF someone skates with a whole lot of speed and someone is slow as molasses. Well that affects the performances. I'm sorry but while not in every way (only part) but good skating skills absolutely can lead to a better performance.

If anything Performance/Execution should be worth more in this system and it should affect entire whole put together..

kwanette
11-02-2011, 10:06 PM
But one would argue that if you fall 3/4 times that's not a decent performance. Especially not in the eyes of the audience. The reaction of the American public to Sasha's silver medal was oh boy other than the 2 falls that was a "decent performance" It was not that was not a good performance how did you medal? And thats her own country.

I really have no way of knowing how the American public reacted to Sasha's silver medal performance. Was there a national poll that I missed?

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 10:16 PM
but why again is quality of movement in blades still not part of execution/performance. IF someone skates with a whole lot of speed and someone is slow as molasses. Well that affects the performances. I'm sorry but while not in every way (only part) but good skating skills absolutely can lead to a better performance.

So why bother with any disctinct, discreet sections at all, since everything is so inter-connected? Why the hell did the old system have tech and prez, should have been one big random, inexplicable number cuz the whole skating performance is one neverending reflection of the circle of life. :wall:

bek
11-02-2011, 10:38 PM
So why bother with any disctinct, discreet sections at all, since everything is so inter-connected? Why the hell did the old system have tech and prez, should have been one big random, inexplicable number cuz the whole skating performance is one neverending reflection of the circle of life. :wall:

But there should be distinct sections but the entire whole needs to be judged a well. You can't just take parts and ignore the whole. Ignoring the whole is the problem with the system.

I don't want to go back to 6.0 not really. We need to evaluate the individual elements that is objective but you have to look at the entire picture too. Numbers can't tell the entire picture. For example Mao Asada's short program vs Kim. The sum of the parts would say that Kim's short program was greater. Mao's triple axel was given a certain amount of points. Kim's 3lutz/3toe another. Kim's jumps were of greater quality. So what happened was Kim ended up with a higher margin. But what the numbers didn't say and couldn't measure are intangibles. I.e Asada being the first woman to ever land a 3axel/2toe in the short at the Games.. How extraodinary of an achievement that is.

Now I'm not saying that Asada necessarily deserved to win the short, I think the argument can still be made for Kim. But one could argue that Asada deserved to be closer to Kim at the very least. And this is especially the case when you add in GOES being subjective. So the elements in and of themselves are getting points subjectively.

Add into art or a dance. Can you judge the quality of a dance, or a movie by the sum of a parts. A dance may be technically great. The dancer may have the most difficult moves ever and the best technique ever. But if there' a mistake here and there and if the choregraphy doesn't just flow right. Can you just judge the dance or the movie by the sum of its parts?

I'd point out you just can't. I like the concept of individual elements being graded in the system, but I'd argue the whole needs to be looked at too.

kittyjake5
11-02-2011, 10:42 PM
Maybe certain FSU posters can be flown out to administer the lashings themselves.


Instead of the pewter medal stand, they can build a stockade.

:rofl::rofl: