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bek
11-02-2011, 06:35 PM
What do falls on jumps have to do with skating skills again? :wall:



Because, per current ISU rules, falls on jumps are not reflected in the PCS and specifically SS scores. They are reflected in the TES section of the score. What part of this do you find confusing?

The part thinks that the system that needs to be changed. And the idea that falling on your jumps a lot shouldn't at least affect P/E is arguable according to the rules.. As for what do falls have to do with skating skills, I could actually agree that good jumping/doesn't equal great skating skills. Although you could argue it takes something to land a jump SS wise. BUT, one could argue falling on footwork/choregraphy means loss of control of your skates.

To be frank I actually would be okay with SS marks not being affected by falls on jumps (jumps not choregraphy), but I think some of the PCS should be. One fall not so much but multiples should have a cumulative affect. IMO And I feel this way precisely because we are seeing so many error ridden programs, that to me to have so many error ridden programs with questionable results. Means execution isn't being valued enough.

mag
11-02-2011, 06:39 PM
I think Bek is right. Falls should be punished severely - say 2 points extra off for the second fall, 3 for the third, etc etc. That will make sure we don't have any messy programs.

(We may also never see another quad or even a triple in ladies skating, but that will give people something to complain about next year so then we can change things again to encourage risk taking so the sport doesn't regress ....)

Haven't we been down this road a few times already?

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 06:43 PM
The part thinks that the system that needs to be changed.

But Chan was scored according to the current system. Not the "what bek wants" system but the current CoP. If you want to discuss how CoP should be changed, that's a whole other thread, not relevant to Hersh's assessment of Chan's SS score.

Had Hersh (and you) said the current system does not punish multiple errors on jumps enough, that would have been one thing. But Hersh railed against the inflated SS scores without really understanding what they reflect.

And you rail against the current CoP system that doesn't reflect falls enough, specifically it reflects them only in TES. And that is irrelevant to my original challenge to Hersh's article. Although you are welcome to continue :mitchell: all you want.

I think Bek is right. Falls should be punished severely - say 2 points extra off for the second fall, 3 for the third, etc etc. Don't forget the public lashing.

mag
11-02-2011, 06:53 PM
....Don't forget the public lashing.

Silly of me ... after the fourth fall there is a public lashing during the medal ceremonies. Oh, and if the fall is on footwork and you get up really quickly and continue to do said footwork brilliantly, in time to the music, and with complete commitment, then we will double the lashing.

jl22aries
11-02-2011, 07:03 PM
Maybe certain FSU posters can be flown out to administer the lashings themselves.

kwanfan1818
11-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Instead of the pewter medal stand, they can build a stockade.

Louise
11-02-2011, 07:43 PM
A similar fall on 2F<< would, I believe, leave the skater with a negative net score on the element, once the deduction for the fall is considered.


That just made me think of something. I don't follow Novice or Junior skating all that much/at all. Is it possible that a skater could have a negative score on TECH? Has it happened yet? I remember one Amber Corwin outing where she got like 12 points on TECH, LOL.

I do think that maybe they could tweak the scoring system like the above poster said. -3 for the first fall, -5 for the second, -7 for the third, etc. That alone should help counterbalance the steady PCS that a skater like Chan usually receives. I understand how the PCS has different criteria, but as a fan of skating who wants others to share in that fandom, it's hard to watch a three or four fall program winning, sometimes even by a landslide. At LEAST make the points closer to make up for a disaster program. Otherwise, why hold a competition if someone like Chan starts off with a 50 point lead? Yeah, yeah, then the others should get their butts to work and bring their own PCS up. But it still lingers that PCS can and has been used to 'hold up' a skater. That isn't going to garner new fans to the sport. The smart ass in me starts hoping he falls five times: Will he finally lose???? For me and some of my skatefan friends we place a bet how many times X will fall BUT you have to submit how many points X wins by? The more falls and wins, the higher the reward/stakes. It is an ironic approach to competition where you can say "X will fall four times but win by 10 points", then someone else counters "No, I bet $100 that he will fall FIVE times and win by 10 points".

In theory, the best skater should be rewarded. But if the 'best skater' is falling everytime and everywhere multiple times in a program, it just doesn't 'feel' right. At least make the point lead less. I'd rather see "Chan squeaks out win by .04 after disastrous three-fall program" versus "Chan creams the competition after a disastrous three-fall program".

What it is, is what it is. This is the scoring system and I suppose it's used fairly as the code is written. But it almost seems like we're just going back to a time when the favorite wins no matter what. I imagine Kwan would have won the LP at 1997 Nationals and retained her title under this new system. Can you imagine the audience response if that happened?

I'm not trying to criticize, but I'm trying to figure out a way to make this sport more compelling and viewer-friendly.

Vagabond
11-02-2011, 07:58 PM
I'm not trying to criticize, but I'm trying to figure out a way to make this sport more compelling and viewer-friendly.

One thing that would help would be to have the broadcasting teams explain what skating skills are and how they are considered separately from jumps. :P

It would be especially good if they could explain to the audience how some skaters (Patrick Chan, Carolina Kostner, and Laura Lepistö, for example) have excellent skating skills that hold up even when they fall or pop jumps, others (like Mirai Nagasu) have weaker skating when they start missing their jumps, and yet others (such as Ryan Bradley and Caroline Zhang) have comparatively poor skating skills no matter how wonderful their elements may be.

bek
11-02-2011, 08:31 PM
That just made me think of something. I don't follow Novice or Junior skating all that much/at all. Is it possible that a skater could have a negative score on TECH? Has it happened yet? I remember one Amber Corwin outing where she got like 12 points on TECH, LOL.

I do think that maybe they could tweak the scoring system like the above poster said. -3 for the first fall, -5 for the second, -7 for the third, etc. That alone should help counterbalance the steady PCS that a skater like Chan usually receives. I understand how the PCS has different criteria, but as a fan of skating who wants others to share in that fandom, it's hard to watch a three or four fall program winning, sometimes even by a landslide. At LEAST make the points closer to make up for a disaster program. Otherwise, why hold a competition if someone like Chan starts off with a 50 point lead? Yeah, yeah, then the others should get their butts to work and bring their own PCS up. But it still lingers that PCS can and has been used to 'hold up' a skater. That isn't going to garner new fans to the sport. The smart ass in me starts hoping he falls five times: Will he finally lose???? For me and some of my skatefan friends we place a bet how many times X will fall BUT you have to submit how many points X wins by? The more falls and wins, the higher the reward/stakes. It is an ironic approach to competition where you can say "X will fall four times but win by 10 points", then someone else counters "No, I bet $100 that he will fall FIVE times and win by 10 points".

In theory, the best skater should be rewarded. But if the 'best skater' is falling everytime and everywhere multiple times in a program, it just doesn't 'feel' right. At least make the point lead less. I'd rather see "Chan squeaks out win by .04 after disastrous three-fall program" versus "Chan creams the competition after a disastrous three-fall program".

What it is, is what it is. This is the scoring system and I suppose it's used fairly as the code is written. But it almost seems like we're just going back to a time when the favorite wins no matter what. I imagine Kwan would have won the LP at 1997 Nationals and retained her title under this new system. Can you imagine the audience response if that happened?

I'm not trying to criticize, but I'm trying to figure out a way to make this sport more compelling and viewer-friendly.

Exactly my point. Whats the point of watching if someone call 4 times in a competition and still beat very good skaters. Yet somehow saying this means I want to publically lynch a skater. What by saying if you don't deliver in the competition you shouldn't win? How is that lynching? That some part of delivering matters and that falling whether on a jump, footwork spin, is a major error? That maybe if you make multiple major errors your results should change? That's not lynching. Its just well try again next time.

Of course its darn difficult to go out there and skate well under pressure. But thats the difference between a great practice skater and a great competitive skater.




It would be especially good if they could explain to the audience how some skaters (Patrick Chan, Carolina Kostner, and Laura Lepistö, for example) have excellent skating skills that hold up even when they fall or pop jumps, others (like Mirai Nagasu) have weaker skating when they start missing their jumps, and yet others (such as Ryan Bradley and Caroline Zhang) have comparatively poor skating skills no matter how wonderful their elements may be.


Well some of us would say fine but what about this. Why then was Laura beating out Kostner while primarily doing doubles if both Kostner and Laura were in the "excellent skating skills category'

And here's another question why is Patrick Chan beating out Oda, when most would say Oda is in "the excellent skating skills category"

Now you may say Patrick's skating skills are still better than Oda's and I'll say well okay.

But here's my question why have the elements at all than? Why have jumps, spins, footwork, if your just going to give the preferred skater a huge PCS lead, so that they can beat out the person who executed better. If its skating skills and skating skills only that matter why not just go back to figures. Or just have everyone skate around in the rink, do the difficult footwork with the different moves and we will be done with it. Heck we can just go back to figures.

kwanette
11-02-2011, 08:32 PM
And they do not.
OK, lets have a third section: bek's punishment for falls. Public lashing is optional.


Where is "messy program" in the rules? I seem to have missed it.

Right below "spark".

MacMadame
11-02-2011, 08:49 PM
If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark.

There are PCS marks that can be effected by falls. But skating skills isn't really one of them. Skating skills is about things like how smooth the stroking is, how the deep the edges, etc. Falls impact the performance so could impact the IN or PE mark.

The only way SS should be effected if is the skater had a drop in overall quality of skating -- which does sometimes happen -- but a fall, in and of itself, doesn't mean the skating skills are poor.

Bev Johnston
11-02-2011, 08:55 PM
I think Bek is right. Falls should be punished severely - say 2 points extra off for the second fall, 3 for the third, etc etc. That will make sure we don't have any messy programs.

(We may also never see another quad or even a triple in ladies skating, but that will give people something to complain about next year so then we can change things again to encourage risk taking so the sport doesn't regress ....)



Quad or triple? Heck, I'd just stick my arms out airplane-style, and stroke around the rink till my music was over! That's gotta be worth more than all those potential falls added up!

victoriaheidi
11-02-2011, 08:56 PM
To me, PCS shouldn't be built around falls and such, but falls should be taken into account when analyzing the quality of the program. Sometimes, a fall completely destroys the flow (not referring to Chan here) and that should be penalized. The PCS shouldn't directly correlate with the technical, but the technical can't be ignored when determining PCS.

bek
11-02-2011, 08:59 PM
There are PCS marks that can be effected by falls. But skating skills isn't really one of them. Skating skills is about things like how smooth the stroking is, how the deep the edges, etc. Falls impact the performance so could impact the IN or PE mark.

The only way SS should be effected if is the skater had a drop in overall quality of skating -- which does sometimes happen -- but a fall, in and of itself, doesn't mean the skating skills are poor.

I actually do for the most part agree with this to be frank. Although I think some trips on footwork, choregraphy should hit the SS mark a little bit. But I'm just speaking in general on why I think the IJS clearly has issues when it comes to PCS vs difficulty. I'd be fine with for the most part the SS being left alone IF other marks in PCS could be affected by poorly executed programs, or even bigger hits on TES were given. But right now it feels a huge part of the score is pretty much predetermined and how the person actually skates doesn't seem to matter. And I take issue with that. I think its a real problem. Also because even in terms of SS for example can disagree about who has the better SS. Depending on think on what part of the SS area you prefer. But the fact that someone completely messed up an element/multi elements thats not really subjective. There needs to be a balance so that you get someone who can skate wonderfully (I do like IJS focus on skating skills) AND execute the elements, and be artistic.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 09:02 PM
I am not sure where in PE and IN criteria would a fall/falls have an impact:
http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

I don't feel like pasting whole pages here but you can see for yourselves. I would like to know why PE and IN be affected by falls--unless of course a skater's performance unravels after a fall. If they keep it together after a fall like Cohen in the 2006 Oly FS, for instance, PCS should not be affected.