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IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 04:15 PM
How do you give Chan 9.5 (of 10) for skating skills after a Skate Canada short program when he botched an opening quad and did a double axel instead of a triple? One judge did, and four of the other nine scored him 9 or higher.

And how did he get seven scores of 9 or more on skating skills in a free skate when he fell twice? I know the sport is more than jumping, but those scores are an insult to everyone's intelligence, Chan's included.
Um, Phil? Time to review the ISU criteria for awarding points for skating skills:


• Balance and rhythmic knee
action and precision of foot
placement
• Flow and effortless glide
• Cleanness and sureness of deep
edges, steps and turns
• Power/energy and acceleration
• Mastery of multi directional
skating
• Mastery of one foot skating
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

Nowhere does it say that falls should affect the SS mark and you know why? Because falls on jumps have their own category where they are marked and it's not part of PCS.

Marking off falls in TES and PCS both would be dinging the skater twice for falls and rather redundant, innit...

The rest of the article is accurate IMO.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 04:26 PM
That said, Nagasu is facing a stronger overall competitive field (IMO) than Cohen did...I bet if the latter came up in this era, she wouldn't have any medals either...(yes, I know I'm asking for it on that comment, but based on her showing at 2010 Nats...)

Pardon the double post but really, which one of the great champions of Cohen's era would have had medals now? Not even Kwan, certainly not late career Kwan. That's is almost as irrelevant as saying Peggy wouldn't have medals now. The CoP has moved on, the sport has moved on and even this season with the Russian girls coming out party, the sport has moved on yet again.

bek
11-02-2011, 04:31 PM
Um, Phil? Time to review the ISU criteria for awarding points for skating skills:


http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152077-169293-64120-0-file,00.pdf

Nowhere does it say that falls should affect the SS mark and you know why? Because falls on jumps have their own category where they are marked and it's not part of PCS.

Marking off falls in TES and PCS both would be dinging the skater twice for falls and rather redundant, innit...

The rest of the article is accurate IMO.

But I don't think it is redundent. If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark. Four fall wins when other good skaters skate well is ridiculous. I'm not saying one fall should knock everyone out. But if Chan had skated like he did a year ago at Skate Canada, at the Olympics and had won, that would have been another huge scandal and would have probably turned the public of the sport forever. Of course in that case the judges I bet would have docked his PCS. But still.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 04:43 PM
But I don't think it is redundent. If a skater falls multiple times, it reflects the quality of the performance as a whole IMO, and I think they either need to hit skaters harder for falls on TES. Or they need to start docking them somewhere in the PCS mark. Four fall wins when other good skaters skate well is ridiculous. I'm not saying one fall should knock everyone out. But if Chan had skated like he did a year ago at Skate Canada, at the Olympics and had won, that would have been another huge scandal and would have probably turned the public of the sport forever. Of course in that case the judges I bet would have docked his PCS. But still.

Kindly show me in the criteria for SS where falls on jumps should be counted. Jumps have their own dedicated section: they already dock them for falls in TES. Why should they be docked twice?

For someone like Mirai who didn't fall in her SC free-skate, should her PCS be stellar? She didn't fall, you know. :rolleyes:

We have two different sections to address two different aspects of skating for a reason. What ISU should or should not be doing in your opinion is not relevant.

bek
11-02-2011, 04:54 PM
Kindly show me in the criteria for SS where falls on jumps should be counted. Jumps have their own dedicated section: they already dock them for falls in TES. Why should they be docked twice?

For someone like Mirai who didn't fall in her SC free-skate, should her PCS be stellar? She didn't fall, you know. :rolleyes:

We have two different sections to address two different aspects of skating for a reason. What ISU should or should not be doing in your opinion is not relevant.

I never said that falls alone should affect PCS did I. And maybe falls (accept for lets say on footwork choregraphy) on jumps shouldn't affect SS. But I don't think the system we have currently punishes errors enough. I'm sorry but multiple falls have a cumulative effect.

Mirai did other things in her program that deserved to lose PCS. She was off the music, didn't attempt to perform etc. I'd give Wagner with a fall higher PCS too. Its not about just falls for me, never was. But really messy programs are really messy programs and should not be rewarded. And I'm sorry I'm quite convinced in this system that if your a top skater, you can absolutely get away with being very messy. Actual execution has to count. You can't have half of the total score being predetermined.

nlyoung
11-02-2011, 04:55 PM
Chan fell on a QUAD.. the most difficult element the men are attempting, and a fluke fall on footwork which may or may not have been caused by a rut or sequin on the ice. How do these two falls make his skating skills less worthy?
:confused:

bek
11-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Chan fell on a QUAD.. the most difficult element the men are attempting, and a fluke fall on footwork which may or may not have been caused by a rut or sequin on the ice. How do these two falls make his skating skills less worthy?
:confused:

I don't have a problem with the quad fall. But Chan falls on footwork quite a bit in comparision to others of course because his stuff is hard but still, and there's no proof that it was a rut. I'm not saying his skating skills should be significantly low. But 9.5 was a little high. (maybe 8s would have been more appropriate Still would have given Fernandez lower SS than Chan.) But one could argue that falls footwork are penalized less than falls on jumps.

I don't really have a problem so much with Chan's scores this Skate Canada. A little high but overall okay. I thought Fernandez's PCS were high too. So its not only Patricks PCS were high this time which makes it much more platable.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 05:05 PM
I never said that falls alone should affect PCS did I. And maybe falls (accept for lets say on footwork choregraphy) on jumps shouldn't affect SS.
And they do not.


But I don't think the system we have currently punishes errors enough. I'm sorry but multiple falls have a cumulative effect. OK, lets have a third section: bek's punishment for falls. Public lashing is optional.


Mirai did other things in her program that deserved to lose PCS. She was off the music, didn't attempt to perform etc. I'd give Wagner with a fall higher PCS too. Its not about just falls for me, never was. But really messy programs are really messy programs and should not be rewarded. And I'm sorry I'm quite convinced in this system that if your a top skater, you can absolutely get away with being very messy. Actual execution has to count. You can't have half of the total score being predetermined.

Where is "messy program" in the rules? I seem to have missed it.

overedge
11-02-2011, 05:11 PM
So to summarize.....ice dancing is now interesting to His Philness, so too bad for all those hacks who were world champions over the last three decades, who were clearly not "compelling" enough to catch his mighty attention. So skaters like Torvill and Dean obviously sucked and were boring to watch as well.

And he was right about how Rachael Flatt should quit, and her face at the end of the program proved that everyone else was wrong :P

Get over yourself, Phil.

Carolla5501
11-02-2011, 05:23 PM
It would help to say what the article is about or mention its title in the thread title.

It sounds like it's about "rambling" which makes a topic hard.

Besides it's Hersh... Does it really matter what he says, at least some posters will be upset (If he said that the sun rose this morning some posters would object on the very premise that "if it's Hersh it must be wrong" ) I actually never read his articles but love the :watch: of these thread :)

bek
11-02-2011, 05:25 PM
And they do not.
OK, lets have a third section: bek's punishment for falls. Public lashing is optional.


Where is "messy program" in the rules? I seem to have missed it.

I never said it was in the rules. Although I say why create a mark name it Performance/Execution and say execution doesn't matter.

What I said is that messiness now matters little in IJS it seems. And I don't like it and I'm not the only one who doesn't like it..And its not like I only say that for the skaters I don't like, and not for the skaters I do like. I'm not one who thinks the program must be clean, on all occasions either. Or the KVPs should always win when they stay upright but it would be nice to see a balance. I'm hopeful that Fernandez PCS vs Chans are indication that the judges will let other GOOD skaters beat Chan, if Chan makes a lot of major errors, and the others are great. Which is a welcome relief.

And I thought Patricks program was gorgeous, overall at this years Skate Canada, and don't have a problem with the win. Saying maybe the PCS should be a little lower is hardly that bad.

Vagabond
11-02-2011, 05:33 PM
Public lashing is optional.

Thank you. I'd always wondered what people meant by "greater punishment for falls." ;)

Takahashi fell on his 4F<< and got 3.20 points, less a 1.00 point deduction, for a net score of 2.20. The base value of a fully rotated 4F is 11.8.

A similar fall on 2F<< would, I believe, leave the skater with a negative net score on the element, once the deduction for the fall is considered.

Under 6.0, a jump with a fall was supposed to count for nothing, and, at least in a Free Skate, the skater could have attempted the jump again. Under CoP, this is effectively impossible, unless the skater has a planned flip combo or is willing to sacrifice another jumping pass.

And some skaters weren't "punished" much or even at all for falls, at least in the Free Skate, where they would occasionally fall and still get 5.9's and 6.0's -- even on the first mark.

I'm really not sure how skaters could receive "greater punishment for falls" unless the ISU scrapped CoP (or implemented IceAlisa's suggestion).

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 05:44 PM
Fans, including bek, said Patrick's LP was gorgeous. What made it gorgeous?

Why, it was the intricacy of the transitions, the emotion and style, expression, the choreography that went with the music and executed so well and the edging, the beautiful use of the blade, multi-directional and one-foot skating that Patrick is so famous for.

Well, if it isn't the almost verbatim criteria for PCS! If those elements were gorgeous, why shouldn't his PCS be? :P

bek
11-02-2011, 06:01 PM
Fans, including bek, said Patrick's LP was gorgeous. What made it gorgeous?

Why, it was the intricacy of the transitions, the emotion and style, expression, the choreography that went with the music and executed so well and the edging, the beautiful use of the blade, multi-directional and one-foot skating that Patrick is so famous for.

Well, if it isn't the almost verbatim criteria for PCS! If those elements were gorgeous, why shouldn't his PCS be? :P

Because he still had some pretty big errors... I never said his PCS shouldn't have been high. Just not as high as they would be with a clean skate. I.e a 9.5 for SS with 2 falls maybe 8.5 (a bit better. Still a HUGE score for skating skills) what do you give him when he skates perfectly clean with no falls/stumbles?

I don't have so much issues with Chan's PCS this time because in relation to others they weren't that bad. I'd have given Fernandez lower PCS too and felt mayber Fernandez was a bit high in relation to Patrick and Daisuke (to be frank about it)

If skaters know they can with huge amounts of errors because they get this huge PCS lead over everyone else, than whats to stop them from overloading their programs or in contrast not trying technical difficult at all.

Once again the actual skate has to matter and if 1/2 of the score is preset why watch?

Its not like I'm saying Patrick deserved low scores for PCS when he falls a lot. I'm saying maybe when he falls a lot he shouldn't be getting SKY HIGH PCS. That maybe sky high PCS should be saved for great performances. And I don't think anyone would say falling 3 times in one program a la Skate Canada last year was a Great performance.

And yes 6.0 had its issues. But in the short program they'd have forced the judges to completely take someone out after 3 falls. And I don't think the judges would truly be able to justify putting a skate with 3 falls over the other, without way more criticism. I think 6.0 was too subjective but it had its points. IMO.

I would have given Daisuke the Olympic title. I'm not someone whose like you fall thats immediately it. I just draw the line at multiple ones.

IceAlisa
11-02-2011, 06:16 PM
What do falls on jumps have to do with skating skills again? :wall:



Because he still had some pretty big errors... I never said his PCS shouldn't have been high. Just not as high as they would be with a clean skate. I.e a 9.5 for SS with 2 falls maybe 8.5 (a bit better. Still a HUGE score for skating skills) what do you give him when he skates perfectly clean with no falls/stumbles.
Because, per current ISU rules, falls on jumps are not reflected in the PCS and specifically SS scores. They are reflected in the TES section of the score. What part of this do you find confusing?