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Proustable
11-21-2011, 03:47 AM
The scores he is getting with the mistakes is precisely what will keep him from growing, though. He's not going to feel any need to try to grow in any area.

Fair enough. But here's the thing: even when clean, I can see the argument from those who think he's overscored. That's what bugs me (for example, I can see why aftershocks thinks 21 points is too much, and I might think so to if I examined it carefully... after, you know, being excited that Chan set the WR. I'm an uber, after all). His score are high when messy? Meh - COP's designed such that his TES errors aren't as heavily punished as other errors and his errors don't interfere with PCS generally (though I think in TEB, moreso than in the other events people refer to, they should have)

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 03:58 AM
I don't find Chan's skating laboured at all and I think his arm movements in this program look very organic and natural for him. There are times in this program with certain moves that he's doing in footwork or the way his posture is that he he looks like a stage dancer to me. I also wouldn't call Chan's spins "really slow". They are for sure not Czisny-fast, but they are decently fast. The one who has "really slow" spins is Takahashi.

Neither Chan nor Dai excel at spins, but Dai has improved (albeit Dai had and still has lots of room for improvement with his spins), while Chan pretty much remains as is re spins, not bad, not great. Disagree totally re Chan's arm movements. Maybe you see "organic and natural to him," but that is definitely subpar when it comes to graceful, natural arm movements.

Chan looks like "a stage dancer". Hmmm, he does have a way with the blades (as has constantly been drummed into our cerebral cortexi), but dancer on stage? Maybe Chan's in the corps, if that. Dai Takahashi and Jeremy Abbott are principal dancers and more well-rounded, complete figure skaters than Chan has a hope to ever be at the rate the judges are rating him.

ETA: One of the things I admire the most about Dai is his capacity for growth and his willingness to keep challenging himself, improving and learning everything he can (not to mention his humility, and his great smile). Jeremy Abbott, I love for his innate musicality and for the depth of his talent -- he makes difficult moves look so effortless. I especially admire Jeremy for never giving up. Dai and Jeremy are the highlights of this season for me, so far.

TwizzlerS
11-21-2011, 04:11 AM
...The one who has "really slow" spins is Takahashi.

I agree Rafter. When I was watching Dai's NHK LP, I was thinking the only thing he needs to improve are his spins. I read an interview with Dai (forgot where, but the link is on one of the threads, probably the one in the Trash Can) and he spoke about going to France to work with ice dance coaches on stroking. That was a great idea. Now, he should work with Lambiel (or Ruh) on his spins. Then, he would be even more amazing than he is now.

Marco
11-21-2011, 04:28 AM
Neither Chan nor Dai excel at spins, but Dai has improved (albeit Dai had and still has lots of room for improvement with his spins), while Chan pretty much remains as is re spins, not bad, not great.


I agree Rafter. When I was watching Dai's NHK LP, I was thinking the only thing he needs to improve are his spins. I read an interview with Dai (forgot where, but the link is on one of the threads, probably the one in the Trash Can) and he spoke about going to France to work with ice dance coaches on stroking. That was a great idea. Now, he should work with Lambiel (or Ruh) on his spins. Then, he would be even more amazing than he is now.

Takahashi routinely spins faster at exhibitions / galas than at actual competitions. I think it has more to do with saving energy / focus for him than with his actual spinning ability.

Positions wise he will never achieve those fully extended classical positions like Buttle had. His positions are more... modern. ;)

Having said that, I think his spins have improved from the past season and am loving that layback component of his combination spin.

On the other hand I think Chan's spins are very, very good. He maintains good speed throughout and achieves nice, clean positions. Definitely one of the top 3 spinners of 2011 Worlds (along with Oda and Kozuka). [not that the field had any phenomenal spinners or anything :shuffle:]

aftershocks
11-21-2011, 04:47 AM
^^ Yes, Dai has definitely improved, and surely he will continue to work on areas where he needs to improve. I saw a great video clip of Dai visiting with a famous Japanese ballet dancer to gain knowledge to improve his skating.

ITA re Dai's gorgeous laybacks! They are standouts with his positions, rhythm and musicality. Wonderful interpretation of the music in both programs.

Lambiel is the great spinner for his speed and centering, not so much for me with his positions, but yeah, Lamby is sweet and wonderful. I also think Johnny is a very good spinner, altho' he pretty much excelled at everything except conforming to status quo and developing a CoP strategy.

The thing about spins under IJS is sometimes I get tired of watching the endless revolutions and position changes, particularly from a not great spinner. It's like, yes, you proved you can spin, now eke out another five more turns, if you can make it.

bbkenn
11-21-2011, 08:57 AM
Neither Chan nor Dai excel at spins, but Dai has improved (albeit Dai had and still has lots of room for improvement with his spins), while Chan pretty much remains as is re spins, not bad, not great. Disagree totally re Chan's arm movements. Maybe you see "organic and natural to him," but that is definitely subpar when it comes to graceful, natural arm movements.

Chan looks like "a stage dancer". Hmmm, he does have a way with the blades (as has constantly been drummed into our cerebral cortexi), but dancer on stage? Maybe Chan's in the corps, if that. Dai Takahashi and Jeremy Abbott are principal dancers and more well-rounded, complete figure skaters than Chan has a hope to ever be at the rate the judges are rating him.

ETA: One of the things I admire the most about Dai is his capacity for growth and his willingness to keep challenging himself, improving and learning everything he can (not to mention his humility, and his great smile). Jeremy Abbott, I love for his innate musicality and for the depth of his talent -- he makes difficult moves look so effortless. I especially admire Jeremy for never giving up. Dai and Jeremy are the highlights of this season for me, so far.

I think that Chan has improved dramatically over the past 2 years since the Olympics.what no one is saying is the fact that he routinely has 2 quads in both SP and LP and executes the 2nd quad in combination effortlessly, not missing at all since he put it into his program last year. All everyone ever talks about is the fact that he falls on either the triple axel or the first quad. His spins are faster and he is interpreting the music this season much better than last, so since this is early in the season, and since he won the worlds last year with a clean short and an almost totally clean long...comparing to what Dai and Jeremy did last year, makes him the best skater at this time even if you don't like Chan, sorry.

Japanfan
11-22-2011, 07:41 AM
Why would he bother to work any harder, though? If he can stumble around like he did at TEB and the fans declare him amazing and fantastic and perfect and the judges give him the win by a huge margin, what motivation to improve anything could he possibly come up with?


He would bother to work harder because he wants to skate clean and become a better skater. After Skate Canada he joked that "people might say I didn't deserve it [the win]" so he is well aware of the criticisms of him. Patrick aspires to be great and knows that multiple mistakes do not make a program great. He's looking towards the top of the podium at Sochi and knows what he's going to need to get there.

Plus, being the best in the world doesn't make him unbeatable. Song beat him on TES at NHK and Takahashi, not Chan, has the highest short program score of the season IIRC?

Multiple mistakes could cost him the title this year and he knows that.

I'm wonder if he is going to simply the footwork where he has the fall, it is perhaps just a bit too difficult. But knowing Chan, probably not.



His fans should actually worry, because complacency could easily creep up on him.

I don't worry about that at all.

professordeb
11-22-2011, 02:28 PM
He would bother to work harder because he wants to skate clean and become a better skater. After Skate Canada he joked that "people might say I didn't deserve it [the win]" so he is well aware of the criticisms of him. Patrick aspires to be great and knows that multiple mistakes do not make a program great. He's looking towards the top of the podium at Sochi and knows what he's going to need to get there.

Plus, being the best in the world doesn't make him unbeatable. Song beat him on TES at NHK and Takahashi, not Chan, has the highest short program score of the season IIRC?

Multiple mistakes could cost him the title this year and he knows.

I'm wonder if he is going to simply the footwork where he has the fall, it is perhaps just a bit too difficult. But knowing Chan, probably not.



I don't worry about that at all.

Well said. I give you a Canadian SO!

shine
11-22-2011, 03:07 PM
I am going to stop banging my head against the wall so it will stop hurting.

Why does it bother you so much that people think Chan is overmarked?

Just when I thought we could finally take a break from so many years of watching Plushenko and his ridiculous PCS, now comes Chan. But I guess I should be grateful that at least Chan has transitions and can skate.

ciocio
11-22-2011, 03:18 PM
Why does it bother you so much that people think Chan is overmarked?

Just when I thought we could finally take a break from so many years of watching Plushenko and his ridiculous PCS, now comes Chan. But I guess at least Chan has transitions and can skate.

So what should ISU do? Make a poll to see who´s the most popular on FSU and award him the highest PCS? Or keep skaters´marks equal despite their abilities, just to make everybody happy? :confused:

nlyoung
11-22-2011, 03:51 PM
Just when I thought we could finally take a break from so many years of watching Plushenko and his ridiculous PCS, now comes Chan. But I guess I should be grateful that at least Chan has transitions and can skate.

Plushenko's scores were ridiculous given the content of his programs at the time. He didn't need the extra marks to win, which he would have done based on his jumping and performance ability, but to reward him for non-programs was a joke, and VERY frustrating. Chan's programs, even with errors, are 10x more complex. If he falls, dock him in the performance and execution column, but other components shouldn't be impacted.

ciocio
11-22-2011, 04:09 PM
Plushenko's scores were ridiculous given the content of his programs at the time. He didn't need the extra marks to win, which he would have done based on his jumping and performance ability, but to reward him for non-programs was a joke, and VERY frustrating. Chan's programs, even with errors, are 10x more complex. If he falls, dock him in the performance and execution column, but other components shouldn't be impacted.

Really? Ask Plushenko and Chan´s ubers, they´ll tell you that they are always wuzrobbed and they deserve higher scores. And the judges persecute them, of course. ;)

RD
11-22-2011, 04:12 PM
:lol: oh, fans and their favorites. ;)

mag
11-22-2011, 07:50 PM
Really? Ask Plushenko and Chan´s ubers, they´ll tell you that they are always wuzrobbed and they deserve higher scores. And the judges persecute them, of course. ;)

Excuse me? Would you please point to a post where a someone has suggested that Chan's marks should be higher? Seriously? I don't have a problem with his marks (I haven't seen TEB this year so I can't comment on that) but I don't remember ever thinking or reading that someone else thought he wuzrobbed.

nlyoung
11-22-2011, 10:30 PM
Really? Ask Plushenko and Chan´s ubers, they´ll tell you that they are always wuzrobbed and they deserve higher scores. And the judges persecute them, of course. ;)

:confused: